Just confirmed my family have planned my life for me

conradmum

Nicki wrote: »

But to put things in perspective:

OP is 60 (according to another thread she started recently), so we can assume I think that her parents are definitely over 75, but more likely well into their 80's?

According to Age Concern 70% of people currently over 65 have never used the internet. So it is not all that surprising perhaps that OP's parents who are well over 65 have felt overwhelmed by that prospect.

The average age to pass your driving test is around 23 years old. I haven't been able to find statistics about people passing their test for the first time at an older age, but even if OP's parents had done as she suggested and got a driving license late in life, at their age they would be having to reapply for their license every 3 years, and it isn't unreasonable to suspect that they would be unable to continue driving for very much longer.

Direct debits are a great idea to make paying bills easy. However, if you have a low income (as OP says her parents do) you need to keep a close idea on your cashflow to make sure you don't go overdrawn. OP's parents don't use internet banking (obviously) and if mum doesn't drive may not be able to get into bank regularly to keep an eye on her balance. So the old fashioned way of tallying her cheque book and paying her bills on the date she chooses each month in an amount she knows she can afford might be more sensible than having money taken automatically on a set date.

Moving to easier accommodation may happen now that OP is moving. Perhaps her parents stayed in their home because it was close to OP and therefore made it easy for them to see her and vice versa? A sheltered housing unit several miles away if they had no transport would be isolating.

Perhaps OP's move will be the catalyst needed for her parents to make some changes, but I do think OP needs to be realistic about what changes are possible at their age, and the whole family has to plan based on what is possible. And I also think it is not fair to say the parents have "asked for this" if the truth is they were in fact for whatever reason not confident or capable of adopting some of the strategies OP thinks they should have done earlier.

The bottom line is, whatever should or shouldn't have been done in the past, the starting point now is that OP and her brother are going to be living some distance from the parents, there are a range of things they currently need help with and over the next 10 years or so that range of things is likely to get greater. And therefore someone needs to plan to have those needs met (ideally the whole family together) without the bitterness and posturing.

And if OP isn't going to do this because she is annoyed with her brother for taking her for granted, then she needs to be sure in her own mind that she GENUINELY does not care if one or both of her parents is found dead in an armchair from hypothermia because they haven't dared to put the heating on after mismanaging their bills, or is in hospital long term following a broken hip, or is found wandering the streets with dementia. Because if she DOES care even a little bit, it is in her interests to get this sorted with a plan otherwise she is going to be up and down the motorway from her new home several times a week doing hospital visits and dealing with police and social services in the event that the parents can't cope without some help.

Nicki, I'm not sure why you're determined to paint the OP in such a bad light. Look at what she's said:

I have wondered for years

Obviously, I want to know my mother is safely "sorted out" and able to manage okay and I have tried over the years

and wanted to ensure that the non-independent mother was okay AND make sure their own lives were okay too.

Amongst the more "conventional" oldie set-ups - there is one idea that has some appeal - ie the Retirement Villages commercial set-up one. However, they are too expensive for my parents to be able to afford (which is a shame - I have investigated this, as I know my parents would like them) or for me to be able to afford later.

In my case I assumed that maybe, at some point, my brother and I might communicate more than very occasionally and very briefly and have discussions about what WE thought about the parents' situation.

These aren't the words of someone who is callously abandoning their parents to die of hypothermia. The OP has clearly been thinking about what will happen when she moves away and trying - for years - to find solutions to the problems this will cause, including having the discussions that you suggest. Nowhere has she said that her parents 'asked for this'. Why did you make that up? It's the OP's parents and brother who are the problem here.

She has, after all, come on here asking for advice on how to help deal with this situation. It isn't very helpful to just criticise her for wanting to actually have a life.

Person_one

margaretclare wrote: »

Would you believe, there is technology which will cope even with this eventuality.

Years ago I used to go to a physiotherapist who was blind but managed to practise his profession and he had a voice -operated computer system to help him. Things have moved on since then.

I think you're massively underestimating the impact of losing your sight suddenly when you've been able to see all your life. Its a huge transition and it can take a very long time to regain independence.

Nicki

conradmum wrote: »

Nicki, I'm not sure why you're determined to paint the OP in such a bad light.

.....

It isn't very helpful to just criticise her for wanting to actually have a life.

Where have I painted her in a bad light? All I have done is to point out that there may well be good reasons why her parents have not been able to do the things she expected of them.

OP did not so far as I can see say or imply that the parents asked for this - that was YOU!

conradmum wrote: »

As the saying goes, you can't help those who won't help themselves.

Where have I criticised OP for wanting to have a life? In every single post where I have agreed that the whole burden of caring for the parents is not on her? Pointing out to the OP the consequences of cutting them off without any care plan in umbrage at her brother is not the same as saying she needs to take over all their care.

You have taken the view in most of your posts that if the parents fall by the wayside it is their own fault and not something for the OP to worry about. That is your prerogative but not a viewpoint I share and therefore I am as entitled as you to state my view, which is that irrespective of how the parents got into their dependent state they are now of such an advanced age where a discussion needs to take place as to how they will be taken care of in the last few years of their lives, where their needs are only going to get greater.

I don't really care if you disagree with me conradsmum but I am as entitled as anyone else to express an opinion on this, and I'd go so far as to say that my opinion has been more balanced than yours in that I have tried to see that both OP and her parents have separate and conflicting needs but that some compromise needs to be reached to ensure both needs are met.

jazabelle

mumps wrote: »

I was taught computer skills by a blind teacher many, many years ago but if you think someone who isn't interested in using a computer or the internet and who is in their 80s is going to suddenly start doing everything online with a voice activated system I think you are dreaming.

She wasn't talking about older people now, who have suddenly lost their sight using a computer. The conversation was around learning skills to try and plan the best way anyone possibly can for old age - particularly herself. The point was she already has computer skills, and if she lost her sight - may be able to still manage with software such as JAWs that reads everything out to you.

Of course no one can plan for every eventuality - but you can make life a little easier for common scenarios such as your mobility getting worse, or finding it harder to leave the house if you choose to.

For example my Nanna bought her first computer in her 70s, and went to a Silver Surfer club. She had been a great letter writer all her life, and as that got harder she was able to continue by sending typed letters. Sadly her health went downhill quite quickly, but I know had she been alive today she would have been online by now and calling me regularly asking how to do new things.

My grandad, on the other hand, did not want to learn how to use computers. He is an incredibly intelligent man, who sends me text messages, and worked out Freeview in a few minutes in his 90s. But he didn't wish to learn how to use a computer years before, and that's a valid choice. However, now he is in his 90s, he still feels the need to go into town every week just to make sure his pension is in, and often he feels ill or in pain - but struggles in anyway, and suffers afterwards. (He uses a debit card, but still wants to see it in the bank to make sure.) He struggles to get books out of the library as they've now bought in a computerised system and often staff aren't about to assist as they assume everyone can work the system. He was stuck paying over the odds for years for car insurance as he didn't know he could shop around. And a million other examples.

Had he joined those Silver Surfer classes, it may have made life a little easier for himself and perhaps will do for others. I have worked with older people learning computer skills - and many particularly enjoy being able to keep in touch with grandchildren, receive regularly pictures/emails and facebook chat with them.

But no one HAS to do anything. They don't have to get online banking, or learn computer skills, etc I'm sure they'll find out other ways that are equally as valid, but perhaps it won't be as easy on either themselves or the people around them.

Mojisola

jazabelle wrote: »

Of course no one can plan for every eventuality - but you can make life a little easier for common scenarios such as your mobility getting worse, or finding it harder to leave the house if you choose to.

This is all we can do and, to make life easier for ourselves in our later years, it's what we should do.

Different people will deal with this differently. Someone who lives alone may decide to go to the post office every week to collect money because it means they get out of the house and see other people.

embob74

Nicki wrote: »

And if OP isn't going to do this because she is annoyed with her brother for taking her for granted, then she needs to be sure in her own mind that she GENUINELY does not care if one or both of her parents is found dead in an armchair from hypothermia because they haven't dared to put the heating on after mismanaging their bills, or is in hospital long term following a broken hip, or is found wandering the streets with dementia. Because if she DOES care even a little bit, it is in her interests to get this sorted with a plan otherwise she is going to be up and down the motorway from her new home several times a week doing hospital visits and dealing with police and social services in the event that the parents can't cope without some help.

I think to put a guilt trip on somebody and say they run the risk of their parents dying from hypothermia due to them wanting to plan for their own retirement is shocking!
Unfortunately OP's parents need to help themselves and as they will not do that while OP is doing everything perhaps OP moving will be the impetus they need.
You are conjuring up hypothetical situations - another one could be that OP becomes ill or incapacitated and who will look after her?! After spending many years of caring it is only fair she looks out for herself now......many carers do not have the strength to pave their own life and end up wasting it caring for an elder due to guilt - which you are just reinforcing.
It sounds like the parents are managing so far as do millions of other older people. While I agree with your reasonings behind why OP's parents maybe do not want to change the fact is that they MUST adapt and nobody should EXPECT a child to give up their life just because they want a crux.
I fear OP will always carry a mantle of guilt but I imagine there have been many years of being put upon to reach the point where you need to walk away.

embob74

As an aside - while the computer age can make things easier in later life it also means that older people may not see anybody else for days on end.
I know somebody in their 90's and she is still mobile but housebound due to well-meaning children arranging shopping banking online so she never has to go out :-/

Nicki

embob74 wrote: »

I think to put a guilt trip on somebody and say they run the risk of their parents dying from hypothermia due to them wanting to plan for their own retirement is shocking!

Is there a facepalm smiley...

Had I done any such thing I would agree.

If you bother to read any of my posts on this thread, rather than conradmum's version of them, you will see that I did no such thing. Indeed every post has said that OP has every right to, and should indeed, move if that is what she wants to do, and has no responsibility to become her parents full time carer.

However, given that she HAS up to now been helping and supporting her parents, who are now quite elderly, if she cares about what is to become of them, then she does need to sit down with them and her brother and make some plans. This would involve discussing the following:

1. What does OP currently do for her parents? Can they manage to do these things by themselves in the future? If not, who is going to help them with these things (this could be a paid for service or something provided by social services).

2. How often will OP and her brother visit? If the parents have problems between visits who will they approach. How often will they telephone?

3. How will OP and her brother monitor between themselves that the parents are coping financially and mentally? How will they get extra help organised for them when this is needed.

3. Who will the parents call in an acute/semi acute emergency? Do they need for example a monitored panic button or alarm system in case they are burgled or one of them has a bad fall?

4. Are they entitled to, and do they need, services such as a cleaner/home help, meals on wheels, etc

As I said in the post which you refer to as a guilt trip :cool: if she cares about their welfare, these issues need to be resolved before she goes, because otherwise it is extremely likely with dependent parents in their 80's that significant problems will arise sooner rather than later and OP is going to spend a lot of time travelling backwards and forwards to sort these out which will cause HER as well as her parents more stress than she needs.

And therefore the only good reason not to make these plans before you go, would be that you genuinely don't care what happens to them and don't intend to deal with any of the problems or visit them if ill after you have gone. Which doesn't sound like the OP based on her posts on what she has been doing up to now, but her brother's reaction to her move at the moment seems on what she has posted to be pushing her in that direction.

conradmum

Nicki wrote: »

Where have I painted her in a bad light? All I have done is to point out that there may well be good reasons why her parents have not been able to do the things she expected of them.

OP did not so far as I can see say or imply that the parents asked for this - that was YOU!

No, I didn't. Please stop making things up. It's also very rude to shout.

You've painted the OP in a bad light several times. Here;

And if OP isn't going to do this because she is annoyed with her brother for taking her for granted, then she needs to be sure in her own mind that she GENUINELY does not care if one or both of her parents is found dead in an armchair from hypothermia because they haven't dared to put the heating on after mismanaging their bills, or is in hospital long term following a broken hip, or is found wandering the streets with dementia. Because if she DOES care even a little bit,

I think its quite sad that things have got to such a point that the love and affection in this family seems to have completely disappeared,


I also find her total lack of concern about what will happen to them to be quite chilling.

nor is it a mature or kind response to completely ignore their needs as a way of point scoring against your brother.


There is a slight hint in your posts that you have been letting this resentment build for years without ever broaching the subject and rather enjoyed the tremendous splash breaking your news made in a tranquil pond.

Quite rude and unkind comments. You've either not read or chosen to ignore the several points she made that I picked out above, that show that clearly cares and has already attempted to do several things to prepare them for her move.

Nicki wrote: »

Where have I criticised OP for wanting to have a life? In every single post where I have agreed that the whole burden of caring for the parents is not on her? Pointing out to the OP the consequences of cutting them off without any care plan in umbrage at her ]brother is not the same as saying she needs to take over all their care.

And you're still doing it. There's no mention in any of her posts about about cutting her parents off without any care plan. The point of posting on here was to ask for advice about what she should do.

Nicki wrote: »

You have taken the view in most of your posts that if the parents fall by the wayside it is their own fault and not something for the OP to worry about.

Not at all. I was making the point that the parents are refusing to help themselves despite the OP's efforts.

Nicki wrote: »

That is your prerogative but not a viewpoint I share and therefore I am as entitled as you to state my view, which is that irrespective of how the parents got into their dependent state they are now of such an advanced age where a discussion needs to take place as to how they will be taken care of in the last few years of their lives, where their needs are only going to get greater.

I don't really care if you disagree with me conradsmum but I am as entitled as anyone else to express an opinion on this, and I'd go so far as to say that my opinion has been more balanced than yours in that I have tried to see that both OP and her parents have separate and conflicting needs but that some compromise needs to be reached to ensure both needs are met.

Yes, you are entitled to an opinion. And I'm entitled to express a response to it. Just try to base your opinion on what people actually say. No one has said the parents don't have needs that will have to be met one way or another. No one has said they 'asked for it'. No one has said they're going to be abandoned. The OP has come on here asking for help dealing with her brother's disengagement and her parents' expectations of her. Why not try to help her with that rather than offering insults based on things you've imagined she's said?

Nicki

Lots of statements very nicely lifted out of context, conradmum...

For example, you need to do x if you care about your parents because otherwise your life will be extremely difficult with lots of journeys up the motorway, etc. Not making plans only works if you genuinely don't care and won't be having to firefight becomes condensed in your version to 4 words = you genuinely don't care. Completely changing the whole meaning and sentiment of what was posted.

The post you crossposted with was actually the only one in the whole thread which gave any concrete ideas as to what OP could do, yet you whose posts have all just been along the lines of "Poor you, you've been abused all your life and your parents have brought this upon themselves" is the one apparently offering help and advice? Ok then.

By the way, I take issue with you repeatedly saying that very elderly people who have declined to learn to drive and use a computer have in any way "refused" to do anything. THAT in my opinion is rude, insulting and disrespectful. They have not been able to do these things, not felt confident to do these things, or been frightened of doing these things, which are all completely understandable at their age. Refusing implies a degree of petulance or unreasonableness, which there is just no reason to believe applies here, even if the OP has been asking her parents to do all of these things for the last 20 years, when they almost certainly were already retired and certainly internet use was a lot harder to learn then (and relatively few people had home internet use 20 years ago anyway). Can I just make the point which you appear to be ignoring that these skills which the parents have in your words "refused" to acquire are very difficult ones, and ones which many much younger people are unable to master.

Perhaps when you are in advanced old age and finding life difficult, you will reflect upon how you are "refusing" to do things for yourself and decide not accept help from any third party, however frail or nervous you have become in life, and whether or not you are mentally as acute as you once were...