Just had a crash, who's fault is it? Need advice please

Tilt

demonted wrote: »

There was no reason for the driving instructor to feel compelled to change lanes, the layout of the road gives the option to remain in the first lane and take the second exit.

The second lane on the exit road is for vehicles which have joined the roundabout at the junction prior to the OP and wishing to exit at their second exit (the first exit to the OP)

OP's stopped posting as its probably beyond him and he' s adamant the driving instructor collided with his car rather than he crossed driving instructors path while assuming the instructor was taking the first exit.

Another point, although the image I posted, taken from the Highway Code, depicts only a two lane roundabout, the same principles apply, regardless of how many lanes, unless road marking and or roads sign state otherwises.

Clearly you are never going to grasp the reality of the situation but you are completely wrong as far as this round-a-bout is concerned.

As my link shows, the road markings dictate that lane 1 should exit at the next exit and also give the option to vehicles in lane 2 to also exit there or continue on round the round-a-about. This type of traffic island allows vehicles to exit side by side as there are two exit lanes leading off. If a driver remains in lane one passing the exit and fails to adhere to the lane markings then a potential collision is possible with a car in lane 2.

HOWEVER, if a driver discovers that he/she is wrongly in lane 1, then he/she should drop back to any vehicle in lane 2 and indicate their intention to move across and I agree that if this was what happened in this case and the TP was ahead of the OP, then the OP should of allowed the TP to move across his path.

Perhaps is you drive around a bit more around the motorway network using your 'quick' motor with it's alloy wheels, you will get the idea from the many of the larger islands you find at motorway junctions of which this island is of a similar type. But as far as i'm concerned, I will leave it there as being an ex-bus and coach driver who has ventured out a few times over the last 23 years, I actually do know a tiny bit about negotiating a round-a-bout correctly.

Good luck!

brat

demonted wrote: »

There was no reason for the driving instructor to feel compelled to change lanes, the layout of the road gives the option to remain in the first lane and take the second exit.

Sorry, it was a bad description of what I was trying to say, probably because of the different options I was considering.

She has to move through the lane that's already signed on the RAB for the A456. There are two ways to do this dependent on roundabout size and vehicle speed. Firstly, having checked all the relevant lanes to her right are clear, she could simply drive through the A456 lane to the desired roundabout position.
If vehicle speeds are slower, and the roundabout traffic is almost stationary, she may have to enter the RAB into the A456 dedicated lane then have to indicate and change lane to make her way into the second lane which will allow her to be in the right RAB lane for her exit.

Jamie_Carter

demonted wrote: »

I never said the driving instructor could remain in the first lane and turn right.

I said maybe the driving instructor was indicating right to show their intention as NOT to exit at the first exit but to exit at the second exit.

Well this would be wrong. You don't indicate right at a roundabout if you are going straight over. In fact you don't indcate riight at all unless you are going right, or going right around the roundabout.

demonted wrote: »

I said the driving instructor can remain in the first lane and exit at the second exit.

Yes they can. But they shouldn't indicate at all until they are passing the first exit. And they they woiuld be indicating left to turn off at the next exit.

demonted wrote: »

I said legally, the driving instructor has done nothing wrong by remaining in the first lane with the intention to exit at the second exit.

But they have by indicating right when going straight over.

demonted wrote: »

However, as it must be clear to do so when entering the roundabout, the driving instructor can enter the roundabout via the first lane and indicate to change into the appropriate lane whilst on the roundabout (unless road markings prohibit this) especially on a large roundabout, such as the one in question.
As any vehicles approaching from the rear should not surmise the intentions of the driver ahead, nor overtake but allow the vehicle ahead to complete their manoeuvre.

If you are turning right you SHOULD use the right hand lane to enter the roundabout. And not enter in the left hand lane, and then cut across. You then move outwards in a spiral effect as you pass each exit, until you are in the correct lane to exit (this would normally be lane one, but in some cases lane two.


You really do need to brush up on the Highway Code from what you have said in your posts.

Jamie_Carter

brat wrote: »

In terms of criminal liability, the two factors to consider are as follows

Firstly, has a driver's aggression (bad attitude) caused this collision? It may be that the OP has been aggressive by trying to accelerate past the driving instructor to get off in lane two. That type of driving will always trump another drivers inadvertent omission in terms of culpability and liability, although it often doesn't get punished to that degree, due to lack of evidence.

Secondly, has the collision been caused by a driver omission? Either party could be guilty of this, by failing to recognise an expected hazard and deal with it.

If the driving instructor came on in lane one from the previous entry, she may be completely unaware that she would be immediately compelled to change lane to get past the first exit. There is a requirement on both parties to accommodate that requirement. If the driver instructor was on the roundabout indicating to go round, and was ahead of the OP when doing so, then the OP should take the hit. He should accommodate her necessary movement round the roundabout from the awkward position that she innocently found herself in. I think this is probably what happened. The OP either inadvertently or aggressively moved past her to get off in lane two, and fluffed the manoeuvre by not getting past her, or by thinking that by accelerating to be alongside her, he was in the dominating position.
Whether the driving instructor will be able to evidence this is another matter.
For her part, the driving instructor should have been aware that her requirement to cross a lane may cause a problem. She should accommodate the movement of those already established in the roundabout, but would be much less culpable if that driver has tried to mix her a bottle by accelerating to put themselves in an awkward and unexpected position.

You missed one huge issue. If you are turning right, you enter a roundabout from the right hand lane, and go straight to the right hand lane of the roundabout. You do not enter from the left hand lane, and then indicate right, blocking anyone else who is trying to turn off, or move out to the first lane ready to turn off at the next exit.

The OP said that he saw the driving instructor indicating as she came up from behind and to the left of him. But for some reason he still cut right across her path, causing the collision.

Personally I think the most likely outcome would be knock for knock. And a reprimand for both, telling them to both learn the HC (I think it is a disgrace that the driving instructor drives this way).

Jamie_Carter

patman99 wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that the OP has stopped posting on here?.

Apparently he is well known for switching login names to try and inflate an argument. I know who my money is on

Jamie_Carter

demonted wrote: »

There was no reason for the driving instructor to feel compelled to change lanes, the layout of the road gives the option to remain in the first lane and take the second exit.

The second lane on the exit road is for vehicles which have joined the roundabout at the junction prior to the OP and wishing to exit at their second exit (the first exit to the OP)

OP's stopped posting as its probably beyond him and he' s adamant the driving instructor collided with his car rather than he crossed driving instructors path while assuming the instructor was taking the first exit.

Another point, although the image I posted, taken from the Highway Code, depicts only a two lane roundabout, the same principles apply, regardless of how many lanes, unless road marking and or roads sign state otherwises.

I really think the Highway Code is beyond your understanding. Are you sure that you aren't the OP?

Jamie_Carter

demonted wrote: »

If the driving instructor entered the roundabout when not clear to do so, any approaching vehicle would have no choice but reduce speed to accommodate such a manoeuvre, thus be aware of that vehicle. The overtaking of the driving instructors vehicle in such circumstances, which results in a collision by crossing the driving instructors path, the driver of the vehicle overtaking is at fault, regardless of who entered the roundabout first.

However, the OP states he entered the roundabout from the second lane of the approach road, side by side with the drving instructors vehicle which occupied the first lane, although the OP had every intention of leaving at the first exit.

The driving instructor may of attempted to warn the OP of their intention to leave at the second exit by indicating right.

So the driving instructor would have been in completely the wrong lane, and should have been in the right hand lane. You don't enter a roundabout from the left hand lane and then cut across (even if you do have a fast car ).

Jamie_Carter

Tilt wrote: »

Clearly you are never going to grasp the reality of the situation but you are completely wrong as far as this round-a-bout is concerned.

As my link shows, the road markings dictate that lane 1 should exit at the next exit and also give the option to vehicles in lane 2 to also exit there or continue on round the round-a-about. This type of traffic island allows vehicles to exit side by side as there are two exit lanes leading off. If a driver remains in lane one passing the exit and fails to adhere to the lane markings then a potential collision is possible with a car in lane 2.

HOWEVER, if a driver discovers that he/she is wrongly in lane 1, then he/she should drop back to any vehicle in lane 2 and indicate their intention to move across and I agree that if this was what happened in this case and the TP was ahead of the OP, then the OP should of allowed the TP to move across his path.

Perhaps is you drive around a bit more around the motorway network using your 'quick' motor with it's alloy wheels, you will get the idea from the many of the larger islands you find at motorway junctions of which this island is of a similar type. But as far as i'm concerned, I will leave it there as being an ex-bus and coach driver who has ventured out a few times over the last 23 years, I actually do know a tiny bit about negotiating a round-a-bout correctly.

Good luck!

At least someone is talking sense :T

The armchair RTC investigator hasn't got a clue, and I doubt that he even drives. And the boy racer obviously needs to retake his test, as he is using the BMW drivers highway code

brat

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

You missed one huge issue. If you are turning right, you enter a roundabout from the right hand lane, and go straight to the right hand lane of the roundabout. You do not enter from the left hand lane, and then indicate right, blocking anyone else who is trying to turn off, or move out to the first lane ready to turn off at the next exit.

There are rules and advice to be heeded, and there is reasonable practice. It would be entirely reasonable for the driving instructor to enter from the first lane, and offer some indication to show others that it is her intention to keep going round the RAB, probably to come off at the next exit at 10 o'clock. It may well be that she's indicated because the OP has come hooning round the RAB to come off A456 at lane two, and she's felt that she has adequate time to move through in front of him. He's probably felt that he has the right of way whatever, and accelerated to try to come round her offside.

brat

Jamie_Carter wrote: »

So the driving instructor would have been in completely the wrong lane, and should have been in the right hand lane. You don't enter a roundabout from the left hand lane and then cut across (even if you do have a fast car ).

There is no information from the approach on Harborne Road to suggest that this RAB should be treated as anything other than a normal RAB. So if the DI wants to come off at 10 o'clock, she should be in the left hand lane. If you look at the traffic flow lines on this overview, you can clearly see that the left hand approach lane from Harborne Road (the approach from the south west to the south of the RAB) is for the first/second exits, and the right hand approach lane is for the second/third/fourth exits.

So if the driving instructor has come out of Harborne Road, she absolutely was in the right lane. Of course you could choose to believe the OP that the DI came from behind him to alongside his nearside, but that's pure fantasy on his part.