Just had a crash, who's fault is it? Need advice please

Tilt

demonted wrote: »

I disagree.

I do a similar movement/manoeuvre often, yet I have a quick car and I take advantage of its performance, yet I believe it's wrong as I'm
technically over taking the car to my left, although I remain in my lane, I have to ensure that the vehicle to my left is not driving straight on, thus not taking the first exit.

I believe on such a roundabout, regardless of lane markings, unless stated "only" the driving instructor can remain in that lane and take the second exit.

As for joining the roundabout in the second lane, that's for either exiting at the second exit (straight on) or exiting at the third exit.

Can you image a bus or truck doing what you suggest, joining the roundabout in the second lane then on exit changing lanes to be in left hand lane, due to the size of vehicle it's not really practical or acceptable, yet although cars do this often, that doesn't make it correct.

Imagine a bus joining the roundabout onto first lane, then change to the second lane while on the rounabout only to need to return back to the first lane to exit at the second exit.

Although, the op is referring to cars, I'm sure if the driving instructor was driving a bus, the OP would have accepted the manoeuvre by the driving instructor and held back.

After all, if the OP intended to use the first exit, why join the roundabout using and from the second lane ?

To drive quick, you have to think quick with eyes over your shoulder as well as using mirrors, it also helps to have a quick car too.

I was a bus driver and have actually negotiated this very traffic island on numerous occasions.

If you approach the round-a-bout with the intention of taking the first exit, then you use the inside or left lane and stay there until the exit otherwise you end up encroaching into the middle lane (which then becomes lane 1 itself) as the original lane 1 effectively ends at the exit. Basically you think it as a spiral effect.

If the instructor was in lane 1 when entering the island with the intention of passing the first exit, then she was in the wrong lane to begin with and as such should of dropped back behind any vehicle in lane 2 (middle) ahead of her and indicated her intention to following traffic who would see her indicator clearly.

demonted

Sorry, I guess that was my fault for reigniting it.

demonted

Although you are a bus driver speaking from personal experience, as to what you believe is the best method of negotiating this roundabout, personally unless road marking suggest otherwise, there is nothing to legally stop the driving instructor from remaining in the first lane, missing the first exit and indicating to exit at the second exit.

Even photos posted show the Silver Fiesta and the vehicles behind in such positions, they intend to miss the first exit, after all they have no reason to slow down or allow vehicle to cut across as they can only enter the roundabout when it is clear to do so.
Any vehicle approaching from behind should reduce speed accordingly to allow vehicles in front to carry out their manoeuvre without second guessing.

After all, if vehicles entering the roundabout via first lane and missing the the first exit is forbidden, why is that secontion of road beyond the first exit not chevroned off to prevent its use ?

How would it be used, lane two and three of the slip road joining the roundabout don't merge into it!

However, was it correct for the OP to use the second lane when they had every intention to using the first exit, No !
But legally, there is nothing, unless road marking state other wise, to stop it.

demonted

Although you are a bus driver speaking from personal experience, as to what you believe is the best method of negotiating this roundabout, personally unless road marking suggest otherwise, there is nothing to legally stop the driving instructor from remaining in the first lane, missing the first exit and indicating to exit at the second exit.

Even photos posted show the Silver Fiesta and the vehicles behind in such positions, they intend to miss the first exit, after all they have no reason to slow down or allow vehicle to cut across as they can only enter the roundabout when it is clear to do so.
Any vehicle approaching from behind should reduce speed accordingly to allow vehicles in front to carry out their manoeuvre without second guessing.

After all, if vehicles entering the roundabout via first lane and missing the the first exit is forbidden, why is that secontion of road beyond the first exit not chevroned off to prevent its use ?

How would it be used, lane two and three of the slip road joining the roundabout don't merge into it!

However, was it correct for the OP to use the second lane when they had every intention to using the first exit, No !
But legally, there is nothing, unless road marking state other wise, to stop it.

Jamie_Carter

demonted wrote: »

I disagree.

I do a similar movement/manoeuvre often, yet I have a quick car and I take advantage of its performance, yet I believe it's wrong as I'm
technically over taking the car to my left, although I remain in my lane, I have to ensure that the vehicle to my left is not driving straight on, thus not taking the first exit.

I believe on such a roundabout, regardless of lane markings, unless stated "only" the driving instructor can remain in that lane and take the second exit.

As for joining the roundabout in the second lane, that's for either exiting at the second exit (straight on) or exiting at the third exit.

Can you image a bus or truck doing what you suggest, joining the roundabout in the second lane then on exit changing lanes to be in left hand lane, due to the size of vehicle it's not really practical or acceptable, yet although cars do this often, that doesn't make it correct.

Imagine a bus joining the roundabout onto first lane, then change to the second lane while on the rounabout only to need to return back to the first lane to exit at the second exit.

Although, the op is referring to cars, I'm sure if the driving instructor was driving a bus, the OP would have accepted the manoeuvre by the driving instructor and held back.

After all, if the OP intended to use the first exit, why join the roundabout using and from the second lane ?

To drive quick, you have to think quick with eyes over your shoulder as well as using mirrors, it also helps to have a quick car too.

I think you need to brush up on your highway code:
http://www.charltondriving.com/dealing_with/roundabouts_two.html

Just because you have a fast car it doesn't mean that different rules apply to you.

HGVs aso have to obey the same rules. The only time they wouldn't is when the length of the vehicle means that they can't take the right hand lane because they would end up driving over the roundabout.

The driving instructor was in the left hand lane, which would normally be for taking the first or second exit, and not for turning right, which they were indicating to do..

The op was in the middle lane, and was taking the next exit. Which according to the lane markings for that particular roundabout was fine, but they mys beware of vehicles that are coming up on their inside, to go straight over the roundabout. Something the OP failed to do, even though they had previously said that they had seen the driving instructor indicating right before the collision.

Tilt

demonted wrote: »

Although you are a bus driver speaking from personal experience, as to what you believe is the best method of negotiating this roundabout, personally unless road marking suggest otherwise, there is nothing to legally stop the driving instructor from remaining in the first lane, missing the first exit and indicating to exit at the second exit.

It's not a question of what I believe, I am speaking from the point of view of a professional driver who knows how to negotiate these types of round-a-bouts correctly. No one mentioned anything 'legal' about which lane to use and which not. It is really common sense. This particular island has 3 entry lanes and the one you choose depends on which exit you intend to take. You will note that at each exit, you lose 1 lane until the next entry point where it reverts into 3 lanes. This should give you a clue on which lane to use on your approach. This is what the highway code says;

186
Signals and position.
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise signal left and approach in the left-hand lane keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise signal right and approach in the right-hand lane keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

demonted wrote:

Even photos posted show the Silver Fiesta and the vehicles behind in such positions, they intend to miss the first exit, after all they have no reason to slow down or allow vehicle to cut across as they can only enter the roundabout when it is clear to do so. Any vehicle approaching from behind should reduce speed accordingly to allow vehicles in front to carry out their manoeuvre without second guessing.

This is just your opinion, so it dosn't mean that this is right (or the driver of the silver Fiesta)

demonted wrote:

After all, if vehicles entering the roundabout via first lane and missing the the first exit is forbidden, why is that secontion of road beyond the first exit not chevroned off to prevent its use ?

Nobody said it was 'forbidden', but it's just not good driving skills.

demonted wrote:

How would it be used, lane two and three of the slip road joining the roundabout don't merge into it!

However, was it correct for the OP to use the second lane when they had every intention to using the first exit, No !
But legally, there is nothing, unless road marking state other wise, to stop it.

YES! As he was coming off into lane 2 of the exit! Why do you think there are 2 lanes of each exit?? Any vehicle in lane 1 should stay in lane 1 of the exit so in effect 2 vehicles can exit the roundabout side by side (if both drivers are driving correctly of course).

Jamie_Carter

Tilt wrote: »

It's not a question of what I believe, I am speaking from the point of view of a professional driver who knows how to negotiate these types of round-a-bouts correctly. No one mentioned anything 'legal' about which lane to use and which not. It is really common sense. This particular island has 3 entry lanes and the one you choose depends on which exit you intend to take. You will note that at each exit, you lose 1 lane until the next entry point where it reverts into 3 lanes. This should give you a clue on which lane to use on your approach. This is what the highway code says;

186
Signals and position.
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise signal left and approach in the left-hand lane keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise signal right and approach in the right-hand lane keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.



This is just your opinion, so it dosn't mean that this is right (or the driver of the silver Fiesta)



Nobody said it was 'forbidden', but it's just not good driving skills.



YES! As he was coming off into lane 2 of the exit! Why do you think there are 2 lanes of each exit?? Any vehicle in lane 1 should stay in lane 1 of the exit so in effect 2 vehicles can exit the roundabout side by side (if both drivers are driving correctly of course).

But he has a fast car, and can drive how he wants

demonted

Point you all seem to be missing.

I never said the driving intructor can remain in first lane if taking third exit.

I merely stated there is nothing in law which prevents the driving instructor remaining in the first lane and taking the second exit.

I do not know this roundabout personally like some do, never the less, I truly believe, due to the continuation of the first lane into the section of road in between the first and second exit, only vehicles in the first lane are able flow into it.

The road layout allows this, otherwise that continuation of the first lane beyond the first exit would be chevroned off to prevent its use.

From what I see of the photos, the only lane which filters into that area, is the first lane.

If the roundabout is entered from the second lane of the approach
road, the road markings indicate to stay in the second lane, with the option to exit at the first exit but only if clear to do so.

Any vehicle approaching from the rear; including myself in a fast car, should not overtake, assuming that a vehicle in the first lane will take the first exit.

However, if the driving instructor intended to take the third exit, then YES they should have used the second or third lane of the approach road to join the roundabout, or if clear to do so from the first lane, while indicating, changed into the appropriate lane as soon as entering the roundabout.

After all, its keep left unless able to do so.
So approach the roundabout with nothing ahead or blocking route, so kept to the left, only enter the roundabout when clear to do so, once on roundabout any approaching vehicles from behind cant surmise intentions of a vehicle a head, but should allow the vehicle to complete their manoeuvre, especially if indicating to change lanes.

Yes, I do take advantage of my cars performance but I certainly don't believe rules should be any different for myself or anyone else who has a quick car.

Such accidents are normally cause by drivers attempting to drive a slow cars fast.

Driving is about being courteous to the vehicles drivers and or pedestrians ahead and or around, not ploughing into another vehicle or a pedestrian because they are in the wrong place or lane.

It's not what other motorist or pedestrians will do, it's what they won't do !


Mr Bus driver, I used the term "believe" as I didnt want to cause offence, as I respect your knowledge as a professional driver but as I caused offence anyway, you're wrong.

That particular roundabout gives the option to remain in the first lane and use the second exit.

Jamie_Carter

demonted wrote: »

Point you all seem to be missing.

I never said the driving intructor can remain in first lane if taking third exit.

I merely stated there is nothing in law which prevents the driving instructor remaining in the first lane and taking the second exit.

I do not know this roundabout personally like some do, never the less, I truly believe, due to the continuation of the first lane into the section of road in between the first and second exit, only vehicles in the first lane are able flow into it.

The road layout allows this, otherwise that continuation of the first lane beyond the first exit would be chevroned off to prevent its use.

From what I see of the photos, the only lane which filters into that area, is the first lane.

If the roundabout is entered from the second lane of the approach
road, the road markings indicate to stay in the second lane, with the option to exit at the first exit but only if clear to do so.

Any vehicle approaching from the rear; including myself in a fast car, should not overtake, assuming that a vehicle in the first lane will take the first exit.

However, if the driving instructor intended to take the third exit, then YES they should have used the second or third lane of the approach road to join the roundabout, or if clear to do so from the first lane, while indicating, changed into the appropriate lane as soon as entering the roundabout.

After all, its keep left unless able to do so.
So approach the roundabout with nothing ahead or blocking route, so kept to the left, only enter the roundabout when clear to do so, once on roundabout any approaching vehicles from behind cant surmise intentions of a vehicle a head, but should allow the vehicle to complete their manoeuvre, especially if indicating to change lanes.

Yes, I do take advantage of my cars performance but I certainly don't believe rules should be any different for myself or anyone else who has a quick car.

Such accidents are normally cause by drivers attempting to drive a slow cars fast.

Driving is about being courteous to the vehicles drivers and or pedestrians ahead and or around, not ploughing into another vehicle or a pedestrian because they are in the wrong place or lane.

It's not what other motorist or pedestrians will do, it's what they won't do !


Mr Bus driver, I used the term "believe" as I didnt want to cause offence, as I respect your knowledge as a professional driver but as I caused offence anyway, you're wrong.

That particular roundabout gives the option to remain in the first lane and use the second exit.

Personally I think people should learn the highway code (not the BMW code), before driving a fast car, or any car come to that.

You clearly don't have a grasp of the HC. If there are two lanes approading a roundabout, and then three lanes on the roundabout. And you are turning right, then you use the right hand lane to approach, and then the right hand lane on the roundabout. And then move out to the first lane as you approach your exit. Obviously some roundabouts differ if they are marked differently.

The speed of your vehicle has nothing at all to do with how you should drive, either on a roundabout, or on a road. Because we should all be driving at about the same speed anyway.

demonted

It's seems the admission of driving a quick as really got to some!
It's lowered too with big alloy wheels and huge exhaust !

I have full understanding of the highway code and the use of and how to negotiate a roundabout.

The second lane on the first exit is for vehicle joining the roundabout at the approach road prior to the one shown in photo and not so vehicles can join the roundabout and exit side by side.
As any vehicles entering the roundabout at the approach road in the photo can only do so when clear, so their should be no danger of impact as vehicle intending to take their second exit will be in the second lane of the OP's first exit.

After all, you all state, if motorist intend to use the first exit of the roundabout to leave, then vehicles should be in and remain in the first lane, if this so, why would a vehicle be in the second lane when intending to take the first exit.

It certainly not me who needs to read the highway code.

Your being telling me you can't enter a box junction next !