Self Respect vs Responsibility

Person_one

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

I might not agree with you on some things but I am always interested in what others have to say.

Are we a 'happy' society do you think? Sometimes I think the happiest societies are those that lead the most basic lives. They do not appear to have murder, suicide, theft, etc. and yet the men and women have completely different roles within that society and it seems to work for them. Just a thought.

I think its a bit of a myth, all societies have their problems. Have you ever watched Tribe? Some of those basic societies actually have some really problematic practices, particularly with regard to gender, but without exposure to any other way it just seems normal and is unquestioned.

A lot of young people who leave more 'simple' societies never go back, having tasted the opportunities the rest of the world has to offer. Look at this: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/07/15/escaping-the-amish-part-1/

I also think you can't put genies back in bottles, even the staunchest anti-feminist woman in the UK (think Nadine Dorries or any Carole Malone!) might bristle a bit if she was expected to live the life of her great great great grandmother, with no possibility of changing it.

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

So correct me if I am wrong, but what you are really saying is that in part, the opinions and attitudes of some of those on this thread are responsible for " not being there yet" and are not as valid as those of the section of society who ascribe to themselves the term "feminist"?
This despite the fact that many or most of those posters are in fact women.

I really don't see how that fits with the aims of feminism.

I would be interested to hear what specific things you want to see changed and how.

The aim of feminism is merely to create a world where women have equal opportunities and status to men, that's all.

You seem to think that feminism means you have to respect any opinion if its uttered by a woman, just because she's a woman, that wouldn't be feminist at all!

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

The aim of feminism is merely to create a world where women have equal opportunities and status to men, that's all.

You seem to think that feminism means you have to respect any opinion if its uttered by a woman, just because she's a woman, that wouldn't be feminist at all!

No, but what makes you (the generic you) feel that your view of it is more relevant or valid than that of the next women? Who is the arbiter of that?

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

No, but what makes you (the generic you) feel that your view of it is more relevant or valid than that of the next women? Who is the arbiter of that?

I'm right.

No, seriously, don't we all think our own opinions are more valid than opposing opinions? Gender has nothing to do with that.

The 'arbiter' of who is right or wrong tends to be history. I'm sure there were people who told abolitionists or suffragettes that they were arrogant to believe they were more right than their opponents, but looking back it seems clear whose opinion was most 'valid'.

In a few years (decades, centuries?) I believe we'll look back in horror at gender inequalities, and at the way gay people are treated in our society.

POPPYOSCAR

Person_one wrote: »

I'm right.

No, seriously, don't we all think our own opinions are more valid than opposing opinions? Gender has nothing to do with that.

The 'arbiter' of who is right or wrong tends to be history. I'm sure there were people who told abolitionists or suffragettes that they were arrogant to believe they were more right than their opponents, but looking back it seems clear whose opinion was most 'valid'.

In a few years (decades, centuries?) I believe we'll look back in horror at gender inequalities, and at the way gay people are treated in our society.

No my opinion is no more valid than anyone else. My opinion affects only my life and that of my dependent children, and the way I lead it. I would never seek to impose my opinion on anyone else - it is just that- my opinion.

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

I'm right.

No, seriously, don't we all think our own opinions are more valid than opposing opinions? Gender has nothing to do with that.

The 'arbiter' of who is right or wrong tends to be history. I'm sure there were people who told abolitionists or suffragettes that they were arrogant to believe they were more right than their opponents, but looking back it seems clear whose opinion was most 'valid'.

In a few years (decades, centuries?) I believe we'll look back in horror at gender inequalities, and at the way gay people are treated in our society.

And we have already heard that some of those who were at the forefront of the movement are not entirely happy with how it has panned out and the unintended ramifications.

With regard to being gay I am not so sure that progress will be made there. If the genetic component is never isolated or the so called gay gene is ever completely rebutted and it is once again seen as a choice there may be be a reversal of the strides already made.

Person_one

POPPYOSCAR wrote: »

No my opinion is no more valid than anyone else. My opinion affects only my life and that of my dependent children, and the way I lead it. I would never seek to impose my opinion on anyone else - it is just that- my opinion.

Fair enough, there are loads and loads of people whose opinions I believe to be less valid than mine.

The world changes when people who feel strongly about something take action to make it happen, there are many people in the world who have a lot of influence over the lives of others and personally, I think its important to stand up and be counted sometimes and say 'No, I don't agree with that, its wrong.'

Very small example, today as I was leaving work I noticed that there was a dog in the car next to mine. Its been a hot day, despite the occasional rain and that dog was possibly at risk. The person who left the dog in the car was probably of the opinion that it was fine to do that, but my opinion that it was risky was more valid so I called security to deal with the situation, they agreed with my opinion too!

For some reason there's a growing idea that every opinion must be equally respected and all opinions are equally valid, that's just not true.

Person_one

poet123 wrote: »

And we have already heard that some of those who were at the forefront of the movement are not entirely happy with how it has panned out and the unintended ramifications.

There hasn't been enough history yet.

Many are also still very involved in the movement.

I really hope that the great strides made towards gay rights aren't just because people think there's a gene. Surely its more about treating our fellow human beings like, well, human beings?

aliasojo

Person_one wrote: »

Fair enough, there are loads and loads of people whose opinions I believe to be less valid than mine.

And don't we know it. :rotfl:

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

Fair enough, there are loads and loads of people whose opinions I believe to be less valid than mine.

The world changes when people who feel strongly about something take action to make it happen, there are many people in the world who have a lot of influence over the lives of others and personally, I think its important to stand up and be counted sometimes and say 'No, I don't agree with that, its wrong.'

Very small example, today as I was leaving work I noticed that there was a dog in the car next to mine. Its been a hot day, despite the occasional rain and that dog was possibly at risk. The person who left the dog in the car was probably of the opinion that it was fine to do that, but my opinion that it was risky was more valid so I called security to deal with the situation, they agreed with my opinion too!

For some reason there's a growing idea that every opinion must be equally respected and all opinions are equally valid, that's just not true.

I agree with that but I am surprised you do, because in the past you have hotly contested that very point on subjects such as breastfeeding and child rearing to name but two.

However, I am of the opinion that anyone who has lived as a woman, worked as a woman, has as valid an opinion on feminism as any other woman, probably not equally as valid, I think in this particular instance validity increases with experience, but still valid.

Therefore, those aging feminists would have a more valid opinion than I or you because they have been there since its inception and seen, and lived, first hand the societal changes.