Which way around should it be?

euronorris

Torry_Quine wrote: »

If you want to celebrate a pagan festival no-one least of all me is stopping you. The problem is when people celebrate at Christmas but take out the Christian aspect. Have your celebration on a different day, not Christmas.

Why? Do Christians now own 25th December??

Lotus-eater

Torry_Quine wrote: »

If you want to celebrate a pagan festival no-one least of all me is stopping you. The problem is when people celebrate at Christmas but take out the Christian aspect. Have your celebration on a different day, not Christmas.

The Christians nicked it off the pagans! If anything the Christians should have another day.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

Torry_Quine wrote: »

If you want to celebrate a pagan festival no-one least of all me is stopping you. The problem is when people celebrate at Christmas but take out the Christian aspect. Have your celebration on a different day, not Christmas.



Actually Santa claus is a derivation of St Nicholas so is much more in keeping with Christianity than Father Christmas.

That is the best way to celebrate, Coventry Cathedral for the watchnight service would be lovely.

Actually, would you mind shifting your festival to around the time the guy was supposed to have been born instead, rather than cluttering up the preexisting midwinter festivals? Pity, you can't, as the gospels can't agree even on the year, never mind the date.

Especially as it's only there on 25th December because somebody decided to shift around the Western calender - so if absolutely necessary, put it back to where it the Eastern Orthodox churches still keep it, round about 6th/7th January. The original 25th December was the solstice and over time, this has shifted slightly, leading up to the introduction of leap yeas to try and keep up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

Torry_Quine

euronorris wrote: »

Why? Do Christians now own 25th December??

Lotus-eater wrote: »

The Christians nicked it off the pagans! If anything the Christians should have another day.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Actually, would you mind shifting your festival to around the time the guy was supposed to have been born instead, rather than cluttering up the preexisting midwinter festivals? Pity, you can't, as the gospels can't agree even on the year, never mind the date.

Especially as it's only there on 25th December because somebody decided to shift around the Western calender - so if absolutely necessary, put it back to where it the Eastern Orthodox churches still keep it, round about 6th/7th January. The original 25th December was the solstice and over time, this has shifted slightly, leading up to the introduction of leap yeas to try and keep up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

Of course Christians don't own the 25th December and I'm well aware that it is highly unlikely that Jesus was born then but that said it is the date which is universally seen as the date we mark His birth.

As far as I'm aware the pagans celebrate the 21st December as the date of the Winter solstice.

I have little doubt that if the date to celebrate Jesus' birth was changed within a relatively short time it would sadly become the hedonistic time it has become for many.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

Torry_Quine wrote: »

Of course Christians don't own the 25th December and I'm well aware that it is highly unlikely that Jesus was born then but that said it is the date which is universally seen as the date we mark His birth.

As far as I'm aware the pagans celebrate the 21st December as the date of the Winter solstice.

I have little doubt that if the date to celebrate Jesus' birth was changed within a relatively short time it would sadly become the hedonistic time it has become for many.

Yes, and it was first set as 25th in the Julian calendar. But the problems with adding artificial dates and times to astronomical observations meant that this slipped fairly quickly. Hence the losing of dates in the switch to the Gregorian calender and the eventual date of the solstice being different.

And if the date marked by Christians to consider their representative's birth were changed, the odds are that nobody else would really notice - they'd go on with their midwinter celebrations much as they did before Christianity ever gained the upper hand in marketing.

digitalphase

I've not read all the pages yet, but got to reply or I'll forget what I've read. I haven't got time to sit and read the whole thing in one hit

mildred1978 wrote: »

We tend to go on holiday, lol, usually to countries that don't celebrate either! No tree, no Santa (DS is only 14 months old anyway), no presents or cards, no extended family gathering etc.

I think it's good that you go on holiday, so at least your child will have something to look forward to when everyone else is getting presents. It's not quite the same as having something to open on the day though.

mildred1978 wrote: »

I see it as commercial exploitation that starts earlier and earlier each year, that has little actual meaning. I want to teach my son that every day counts, to be grateful for what we have every day, not just once or twice a year.

Yes, this is true. And it is a shame that there are Christmas things on the shelf next to the Halloween things when there is over 2 months between the two 'events'. I prefer to space things out so you have things to look forward to. I always like Fireworks night as well., but the Xmas things are out before that - strange.

However, I have been 'forced' to start buying Christmas things earlier than I'd like, because if I leave it later, things will sell out. I have ordered a personalised stocking and sack for my baby today, as I know they will sell out quickly. No bother, I'll stick it in his wardrobe and forget about it until December :cool:

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I am an atheist as well, but you may have gathered that I still 'celebrate' Christmas. Well, we put up decorations, give presents, have a bl%dy good meal, pull some crackers, drink some alcohol and all in all have a lovely time. It's not a religious day in the slightest for my family nor my OH's. Neither of us were brought up going to church for the morning or anything. Or to church, full stop.
So, I am an atheist as far as I don't believe in God, but I am not as extreme in my views as you. I send cards etc, but I never send religious cards. I send winter or animal themed cards.

I find it very sad to think of a little boy not looking forward to what presents he may get on the day, making things like mince pies, putting a glass of sherry out for santa and a carrot for rudolph. But not everyone does things the same as I will, or my family did. Fair enough.

I do think your inlaws are odd for ignoring a birthday, which is a personal thing, but instead send a Christmas card (which they know you will not appreciate) which isn't personal.

Nowt strange as folk

lostinrates

Torry_Quine wrote: »

Of course Christians don't own the 25th December and I'm well aware that it is highly unlikely that Jesus was born then but that said it is the date which is universally seen as the date we mark His birth.

As far as I'm aware the pagans celebrate the 21st December as the date of the Winter solstice.

I have little doubt that if the date to celebrate Jesus' birth was changed within a relatively short time it would sadly become the hedonistic time it has become for many.

IMOI it doesn't matter when he was born, its important representatively for Christians, but to be possessive and derisive about older or other beliefs strikes me as very un Christian. I think the commercialism at Chjristmas...and any other time of year, because everything is..or has the potential to be now ...is sad but on an individual basis avoidable. To celebrate ''Christmas'' or winter, or whatever with love, sharing and generosity in what ever culturally recognised form, with Good will to all men etc etc, is a wonderful thing. Though no longer Christian its a time I use respectfully to be greatful for a broadminded Christian upbringing and enjoy feeling loving towards the religious festivals and moral guidance and tolerance I was brought up knowing, and I enjoy it with my Jewish husband and as I mentioned before, friends and extended family of varied religious and otherwise backgrounds. In US the Thanksgiving holiday fills much the same function as our Christmas here does....a time we can be broadmindedly greatful and friendly...despite some fairly dubious nature when looked at the history. Other people celebrating ''Christmas'' seems to me not to diminish the Christian festival any. afterall, if God loves every sparrow I'm sure he could love the aethiast giving their child an argos festival and be glad that people are being happy.

*Louise*

I don't care all that much if it's Christian, Pagan, religious, or non religious, everyone celebrates the festive season in different ways, each to their own.

I just couldn't ever ignore it completely and deprive my child of all those special memories and the magical feeling that we as parents can create. It's all about spending time with family, good food and that warm fuzzy feeling that only the lead up to Christmas can create.:rudolf:

So maybe I have [STRIKE]told lies[/STRIKE] created an illusion for my children....they are only young for such a short time......are they ever going to resent me for it? I very much doubt it. Will they appreciate it when they are older and realise how much work and effort was put into making them happy by me and not 'Santa'? Hopefully :rotfl:

Torry_Quine

lostinrates wrote: »

IMOI it doesn't matter when he was born, its important representatively for Christians, but to be possessive and ride about older or other beliefs strikes me as very un Christian. I think the commercialism at Chjristmas...and any other time of year, because everything is..or has the potential to be now ...is sad but on an individual basis avoidable. To celebrate ''Christmas'' or winter, or whatever with love, sharing and generosity in what ever culturally recognised form, with Good will to all men etc etc, is a wonderful thing. Though no longer Christian its a time I use respectfully to be greatful for a broadminded Christian upbringing and enjoy feeling loving towards the religious festivals and moral guidance and tolerance I was brought up knowing, and I enjoy it with my Jewish husband and as I mentioned before, friends and extended family of varied religious and otherwise backgrounds. In US the Thanksgiving holiday fills much the same function as our Christmas here does....a time we can be broadmindedly greatful and friendly...despite some fairly dubious nature when looked at the history. Other people celebrating ''Christmas'' seems to me not to diminish the Christian festival any. afterall, if God loves every sparrow I'm sure he could love the aethiast giving their child an argos festival and be glad that people are being happy.

Lovely post.

claire16c

My parents 'lied' to me about Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy etc and you know? Im VERY glad they did!