A question for mothers of adult children please

Treevo

poet123 wrote: »

I am sure that they exist, but I very much doubt they exist in the numbers they seem to on here. It could equally be that both mother and daughter want their own way (like mother like daughter?) and yet only one gets the narcissistic title.;)

I doubt there is a person alive who has not had issues with their mother; loads of them. Such is life, that does not mean they are monsters, just that they are not perfect. Who is?

The difference being that one wants their own way over their own life while the other wants their own way over someone else's life. That is why one is given the label and not the other.

poet123

Treevo wrote: »

The difference being that one wants their own way over their own life while the other wants their own way over someone else's life. That is why one is given the label and not the other.

I doubt you would find that as the definition.

Tygermoth

As the Daughter of Narsistic mother one of the issues I faced was the inherent belief in the wonder and values of motherhood.

Those who had an upbringing outside of the subtly controlling household would down play the issues to 'caring' 'well meaning' and doing it for your good'. Because they wanted to believe that all mothers inherently are good and wholesome. (which to be fair most are!)

Luckily my mother is getting older and is less in control of her subversive and manipulative nature and the people who once chided me for not understanding her or telling to cherish her because she would be gone too soon are the ones calling me in tears because they have found out she barefaced lied or stole from them. She has now fallen out with everyone and I mean everyone she does not have a single friendship or relationship she has not twisted until it broke.

This week alone two people have actually come to visit me, out of the blue, especially to apologise for their blindness to her actual nature and how they treated me when I was trying to explain the issues I was dealing with (this has come to light as my mother was thwarted in something she wanted and had decided she deserved and did something so reprehensible it ended up on the news and she was arrested and charged) to this day she maintains it is not her fault. they should have just done as she told them. (her refusal to take any responsibility so infuriated the judge and she got the highest ruling he could give her)

The problem I always had was my mum was the worlds best actor - everyone only ever saw the loving, perfect doting mother image, composed, smiling and charming. It made me seem petty and small minded by comparison and well meaning people were quite happy to let me know they thought I was the petty one, I was the one who was needlessly upset, I was the one making waves and my perfectly wonderful mother was just acting in my best interests...

My fingers are crossed for you Blue Monkey. Most daughters of N mothers end up having to shut the door to communication altogether because you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. So if you are going to be damned either way it might as well be for taking a step back from her dramas and therefore having a quiet life!

*Ps those who do have a N mother and are surprised that mine did such a massive public thing which to showed her in a bad light (N hate to lose the mask they set for themselves and would normally fight to the death to keep the façade intact) she had tried, begged, cajoled, manipulated stirred for she was worth for nothing. What she wanted was taken out of her grasp and like a spoiled child she would rather break it than share. So that's what she did. and then tried to go down the 'poor me' road and was horrified to discover that people couldn't get over what she did and would not let her walk them down the garden path of her being a 'victim' to this day she refuses to see what she did was reprehensible and as such she cant move on from it and neither can her friends and family.

Blue_Monkey

Thank you JoJo, I appreciate your perspective, but there are few things I want to add context too - below in red.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

It's all very well saying you won't make any mistakes and you will always be a perfect mother. Odds are that you, like everybody else, won't be. And, like a large number of others, will be faced with the monster that is a teenager at some point, where there is no chance of you being able to do a single thing right. I totally agree, and am expecting this conflict with DD further down the line. However, I'm 33 years old, and no longer a teenager. And I will never take the "it's my way or the high way" approach, regardless of what is going on, which has always been my mother's approach.

I've got two older girls. One spent an entire year hating the fact that I wasn't dead. However, after that year, she came round to the idea that actually, I'm not the devil incarnate after all. And that such acts of child abuse as - gasp - refusing to pick her dirty knickers and school uniform off her bedroom floor at the age of 13 - aren't as terrible as she claimed them to be. Did you frequently storm into her bedroom unannounced and bellow and rage and rant at her about her messy room without given her the chance to speak? All the while, swiping stuff off surfaces and treading on things to break them? Did you get so het up you would throw a hairbrush at her and go on until she would cry and then slam the door on your way out?

Nothing I ever did in that year could ever be right - I would imagine that perhaps you've been on the receiving end of that feeling at some point in your life. Sometimes you say the right thing, most the time, whatever you say won't solve it and will just as likely end in another row. Even saying nothing would be wrong. So whatever you do, there's somebody you love rejecting you and saying you aren't good enough. And this must be tough/horrible/sad to deal with but surely is just part of what happens when your children are dealing with growing more and more independent and pushing themselves away from you. That is surely never going to be an easy process for anyone involved, so whilst I'm sure it's easier said than done, a certain amount of perspective must be required whilst trying not to take EVERYTHING personally.

Nothing you have reported your mum as saying is a capital offence. She's expressed concern about your eating It wasn't really expressed as a concern though, it was more an agressive you-are-being-irresponsible dig. There are ways of broaching these things. I am happy for her to be interested in my well-being but when she's agressive/authorative about it, the content and meaning is lost and only serves to fuel resistance from me rather than an appreciation of her "care" - maybe she is wrong, maybe she's right, I have absolutely no idea; but it's a normal thing for a parent to be thinking of - I hope my eldest is eating properly, and will always try to encourage to do so when I see her, by offering good food. But the fact is that as a University Student, she is probably intermittently starving herself and eating crap. That only hurts her physically; if she were pregnant, it would be hurting somebody else. A snotty comment from her about any interest in her health would be exactly that.

She looked at a buggy. If it was a state secret, it would have made more sense to get it delivered to your home. I was in the process of moving back to the UK from Australia... I wouldn't like it opened either, but it's not the end of the world. No it isn't, and I never mention it to her, but it demonstrated yet another example of her not showing any regard for it being my stuff. It was clumsily opened and put back together and she said "We couldn't work out the brake and think we've broken it". Thankfully she didn't break it then, but one day last year when she was babysitting DD I explained in detail to her how the buggy is set up etc (we live in a flat so you need to take it apart to get up and down the stairs) and I knew at the time she wasn't paying attention and was making out that I was being bossy/controlling/precious about it, going "yeah yeah, it's not rocket science" and lo and behold, when using it later that day, she didn't know what to do and broke it. I used to prefer to get to the Argos catalogue before the girls did as well; rather than getting angry, I just ensured the problem never came about again by getting two copies. Same principle; don't give a chance for something to get het up about next time.

You won't tell her any ideas for names, have told her to bog off with her own ideas - and an idea is only an idea, it's not an order - a sensible and non confrontational reaction would have been to let her make her suggestions (and laugh or cringe at them in private later). I never told her to bog off, I did just laugh off any suggestions. But I still found it overbearing because she was being serious and wanted me to use her suggestions. She was looking for the glory of having been the one to suggest the best/chosen name.

A pet name for the bump doesn't hurt - it's not as if she's got a clue about what you are calling It. And, let's not forget, if the bump were referred to by her as It, you'd be offended by that as well. No I wouldn't have been. It was more that she would tell EVERYONE that Grandma had made up this wonderfully amazing name for her grandchild. Look everyone aren't I funny at this funny name for my grandchild.

Rubbing your bump - could it be that it's an excuse to have physical contact with her daughter, a cackhanded way of getting a hug and trying to show love to the baby. Saying she wants to be involved? Maybe yes. And the touching didn't bother me. It was more the "I need to touch it every day so that the baby knows I'm it's grandma" - none of the other grandparents felt the need to do this. Again, it was too much for me but I never once spoke up about it.

And now she's given you warning she's stepping back but full of martydom "you don't need me", it's giving you the opportunity to explain what you do want - but what you sound as though you are saying is that you want a cheap childminder, not a grandparent. That you're using her. Childcare didn't even come into the equation back then before I'd had DD and all of the grandparents offered their assistance with childcare, so I was grateful and happy to take them up on the offer.

Personally, I don't have any of these issues with my mother. Well, beyond the initial 'you should have an abortion and get rid of it because you won't be a good mother like me' telephone call. :cool:

Want to swap?

ETA: I'm not saying you are definitely 100% in the wrong. But I have read your posts carefully and I'm not convinced that she is entirely in the wrong, either. She's how old? 50s? 60s So menopausal? You're pregnant. How many hormones do you need flying around the place at once? It's possible that this is getting blown up out of proportion. I totally agree that at the time of the original row yes I was pregnant and naturally hormonal. I'm not pregnant now, nor was I last week so hormones cannot be used as excuse (from my side anyway) for this latest spat. And yes, it is now beyond out of proportion, which now, and back then, I can confidently say is her doing. I have remained happy to see these incidents as a silly case of rubbing-each-other-up-the-wrong way, tried to apologise and move on, yet it continues....

Seriously, try and read your own posts dispassionately and try and see how a stranger could interpret them. Then think whether there could be an element of responsibility on both sides. Again, I totally agree. I'm not blameless, I shouldn't have flounced, but if the initial outbursts from my mum weren't so agressive and undermining, I would've been happy to just listen to her "suggestions" and let the conversation continue on its merry way. I do take responsibility for my contribution to the spat, I understand the way it must've made her feel and I'm sorry and sad for that as it was not my intention. What is totally lacking is the ability or willingness for her to see it from my side.

Blue_Monkey

Poet - I agree that it's easy to quickly jump on the "she's a narc" bandwagon which is why I'm wary of going down that route... I don't want to look for narc traits in everything she says and does and to be quite honest, I'm really struggling with the idea that it's even a possibility. It's not nice to think about your own mother in this way, believe me. At the moment, I'm desperately hoping I've got this all wrong and would find it easier to process if it turns out to just be me being melodramatic about it all. And that it is normal to have week long arguments with your mother 3-4 times a year.

LannieDuck

I think the best thing to do would be to decide for yourself how much contact you want to have, and then be consistent about it. Hopefully she'll come to realise that you aren't cutting her out and you still value her input.

Ignore her strops if you can and act as if they haven't happened (just as you would ignore a temper tantrum in your child). When she's being passive aggressive and moody, start talking about how you're looking forward to seeing her on x day, or "oh, I meant to ask if you'd help me with y". So ignore the flouces and change the subject to something more positive that she'll hopefully want to join in with, while emphasising that she is needed and wanted.

You could also try addressing it head on. When she's stropping, have you tried something like: "Mum, you're obviously upset with me but I don't know why. What have I done that's so terrible?". If you can address her issues calmly and rationally, she may find she has less ammunition for her strop than she thought she had. For example, if she says that you were horrible to her when she was just trying to help about your weight, you can say "no I wasn't, I just don't want to talk about my weight. Is that really why you've been so upset all day?".

...but you've probably already tried all that.

Incidentally, when you say that it's her way or nothing that's not entirely true. Although I wouldn't advocate using your DD as a weapon in this, you do nonetheless hold all the cards - if you stand your ground, is she really going to fall out with you and risk not seeing her grandchild?

kittiej

I see this an awful lot with the people I know in my area, one person wants to know the ins and outs of all her son does, even to the point of wanting to know how much he earns and the son is in his mid 20's.

There's another who's daughter is getting married this year and you would think it was the mother's wedding to hear her speaking "my wedding this n that".

Another sorts out banking / wages problems - well all problems, and her children are both in their 20's, university graduates working in very respectable jobs which involve critical decisions to be made. I just find it all baffling tbh.

They all want to know the whereabouts of their children constantly and as an onlooker I find it really disturbing.

I do think the children need to create the distance sometimes otherwise nothing will change. OP does your mother have any friends she can spend time with or are you her only focus in life?

It's difficult, especially when she is so obviously looking forward to the baby however you are the mother so you must make sure she respects that.

Blue_Monkey

Thanks Lannie - your suggestions are pretty much the way I've decided to handle it. I'm going to call her over the weekend and will be just normal with her. From my side, the spat is over. If she wants to continue it I'm not going to fuel/feed it. If she starts raging, I will simply say "I would prefer to talk about this calmly so please call me back when that will be possible". I plan for DD to go there as normal on Tuesday. The only stumbling block will be if she's still angry/agressive, in which case I think I'll have to say "I am not comfortable being in a situation where I'm asking a favour from someone who clearly is upset with me and as we need to be able to communicate about DD's childcare I'll need to make other arrangements whilst we're not able to communicate properly". (gulp)

Kittie - My mum has a few other bits and pieces going on but DD is definitely a key focus in her life. She says she doesn't see enough of her yet DH and I are keen to ensure that time is split as equally as possible between my mum and stepdad, his parents and my dad and stepmum. All live quite close to us (walking/short drive) and most are still working a lot so during the week isn't always possible (specially now I'm back to work) and weekends we are often busy sorting stuff at home, going shopping, couple of activities for DD, kids parties, blah blah plus DH doesn't specially want to spend his free time hanging out with parents and wants us to spend time as a little family, so we sometimes do have to turn down Sunday lunch invites. Which then upsets mum a) because we're "blowing her out" and b) because we're "quite happy to make plans with other people" but not her.

LannieDuck

Blue_Monkey wrote: »

The only stumbling block will be if she's still angry/agressive, in which case I think I'll have to say "I am not comfortable being in a situation where I'm asking a favour from someone who clearly is upset with me and as we need to be able to communicate about DD's childcare I'll need to make other arrangements whilst we're not able to communicate properly". (gulp)

Obviously your choice, but I don't think I would. There's no way she won't take that really badly. It would most likely escalate a small disagreement into all out war. And is it really necessary? Ultimately, she's DD's grandmum and adores her - is it really a problem to leave DD with her even when she's in a mood?

What's your specific concern about it?

Blue_Monkey

Well, basically I am uncomfortable asking her to look after DD for me whilst she's not talking to me. We will need to communicate over DD's day - ie is she feeling well, how's she been sleeping, is she constipated etc etc. DD takes a while to settle when I drop her off so I usually stay for 15 mins or so to get her sorted with breakfast and then when she's happy I go. If there's a horrid atmosphere, I wouldn't want DD to pick up on it.

I don't want to let her use this against me. I don't want to be beholden to her because she looks after DD when I work. I don't want DD to be a pawn in that. I also don't specially want her in a toxic environment.

I guess it would be my attempt to show that I will exert control if I need to. That she doesn't have the right to yell and holler at me even if she provides childcare for me.

Agreed that it will be epic because she will see it as emotional blackmail. This is the last resort, and certainly not my preferred course of action. As I say, I guess it depends how the conversation goes.

But I will not be beholden to her.