credit card fraud? have you been done recently?

James

MPH80 wrote: »

Fraud is falling for all transactions involving chip and pin.

Fraud is rising in the areas where chip and pin is not being used - e.g. in CNP situations and in transactions abroad. Exactly as it was obvious would happen and even the banks predicted.

What will be interesting is what will happen in CNP situations as verified by visa/mastercard securecode rolls out and as Europe completes the C&P rollout by 2010.

MPH80 nice to see you're still around. (The Card Industry must be paying you a fortune).

It will be interesting to see what happens in 2010. Until then UK cardholders (used as guinea pigs) will be paying the price.

After 2010 (if Europe does complete C&P) then I predict that carrying cards will become Dangerous for a considerable amount of vulnerable people. As has already happened in the UK, older people and women will be targetted for their PINs and cards.

Liability shift too will become comon place, where, as predicted, victims will be treated like crooks and will have to pick-up the total cost of fraud.

MPH80

James wrote: »

MPH80 nice to see you're still around. (The Card Industry must be paying you a fortune).

Amazing isn't it. You know someone's on the back foot when they have to start random accusations about bias. But - to be clear - I don't work for the card industry - they don't pay me - never have.

James wrote:

After 2010 (if Europe does complete C&P) then I predict that carrying cards will become Dangerous for a considerable amount of vulnerable people. As has already happened in the UK, older people and women will be targetted for their PINs and cards.

Might well happen. However, I've yet to see a lot of (any?) documented evidence that muggings are more prevalent, or more dangerous, because of C&P. There might well be evidence they've gone up - but I'd like to see the link proved please.

M.

James

MPH80 wrote: »

Amazing isn't it. You know someone's on the back foot when they have to start random accusations about bias. But - to be clear - I don't work for the card industry - they don't pay me - never have.



Might well happen. However, I've yet to see a lot of (any?) documented evidence that muggings are more prevalent, or more dangerous, because of C&P. There might well be evidence they've gone up - but I'd like to see the link proved please.

M.

Sorry, my comment was supposed to be tounge in cheek.

PIN Number Theif Targets Women.

There were other incidences of OAP's being targetted and if I find the link I'll post it.

I don't think you need much imagination for the following.

Crook captures victims PIN (by numerous means).

Crook targets victims Card

Crook hits ATM's with victims card and PIN without ever being challenged. Low risk - High Reward. (Especially if the victim uses the same PIN for each card)

Just found this one. I bet neither of these OAP's were told they could have had Chip & Signature Cards, which would have been safer for them to use.

Iamthesmartestmanalive

James wrote: »

Sorry, my comment was supposed to be tounge in cheek.

PIN Number Theif Targets Women.

There were other incidences of OAP's being targetted and if I find the link I'll post it.

I don't think you need much imagination for the following.

Crook captures victims PIN (by numerous means).

Crook targets victims Card

Crook hits ATM's with victims card and PIN without ever being challenged. Low risk - High Reward. (Especially if the victim uses the same PIN for each card)

James but even with chip and pin the cards are safer, unless and this is the problem the old biddy has her pin in the bag

Pre chip and pin, mug oap, forge signature, get goods
Post chip and pin, mug oap, useless unless online except when the oap has pin present

Certainly the majority are safer, its just those who carry pins that arent

and most banks are sympathetic to the old biddies, its the young folk with no excuse who look bad

James

Iamthesmartestmanalive wrote: »

James but even with chip and pin the cards are safer, unless and this is the problem the old biddy has her pin in the bag

Pre chip and pin, mug oap, forge signature, get goods
Post chip and pin, mug oap, useless unless online except when the oap has pin present

Certainly the majority are safer, its just those who carry pins that arent

and most banks are sympathetic to the old biddies, its the young folk with no excuse who look bad

The cards are safer but cardholders aren't.

The two old biddies as you put will be liable for the loss. Surely their Banks have a duty of care, in line with the National Consumer Council recommendations that people should be given more information about the availability of Chip & Signature Cards. (ie.which card suits their needs best).

If the Old Biddies had been issued with Chip & Signature Cards, then the crooks couldn't have withdrawn cash at ATMs. If they had dared forge their signatures (assuming the crooks were women), then they could only have used their cards in a shop or at Branch (to withdraw cash), thus increasing the risk to the crook.

Of course their is a third way.

Click here.

No one method will reduce fraud but a combination of several could!

Found another example. Warning Over Purse Snatchers.

Iamthesmartestmanalive

James wrote: »

The cards are safer but cardholders aren't.

The two old biddies as you put will be liable for the loss. Surely their Banks have a duty of care, in line with the National Consumer Council recommendations that people should be given more information about the availability of Chip & Signature Cards. (ie.which card suits their needs best).

If the Old Biddies had been issued with Chip & Signature Cards, then the crooks couldn't have withdrawn cash at ATMs. If they had dared forge their signatures (assuming the crooks were women), then they could only have used their cards in a shop or at Branch (to withdraw cash), thus increasing the risk to the crook.

Of course their is a third way.

Click here.

No one method will reduce fraud but a combination of several could!

Found another example. Warning Over Purse Snatchers.

what I would ask about your system and I did ask in your other thread

The banks need some protection too from conmen, whats to stop someone just giving their card to their friend, getting their friend to give false prints then the two pocketing the goods/cash?

It happens and thats why the banks wont agree to it

Scammers could deliberatly get round it all the whilst protecting from liability

Using security q's and pins only the ch should know stop scams like this

James

Iamthesmartestmanalive wrote: »

what I would ask about your system and I did ask in your other thread

The banks need some protection too from conmen, whats to stop someone just giving their card to their friend, getting their friend to give false prints then the two pocketing the goods/cash?

It happens and thats why the banks wont agree to it

Scammers could deliberatly get round it all the whilst protecting from liability

Using security q's and pins only the ch should know stop scams like this

Answer to your first question:

The Banks are protected, (read the Inverness posting) by the amount of fraud this system deters. Considering Banks and retailers have just forked out something like £1.3 Billion for Chip & PIN, they've missed the boat.

Prints are be submitted in full view of a cashier. If a cashier was complicit then incidences of fraud would, pardon the pun stick out like a sore thumb.

Of course you can always give your card and PIN to a crook and do the exact same, then claim you weren't negligent with your PIN and you've lost your card.

It's all about primarily protecting yourself and increasing the risk to the thief.

Car companies and garages are already using this system to protect thier goods.

Here are a few links you may find of interest:

Europcar rolls out Thumbprint System.

Forecourt Crime Schem Hailed a Success.

Inverness lowest card and cheque fraud rates in the UK.

If car rental companies, garages and retailers use this system. Why shouldn't you?

MPH80

James,

What I asked for was evidence that muggings were increasing and becoming more dangerous.

What you've provided is that there are a number of muggings targetting credit cards.

There have been muggings for years targetting purses. Including a lot who use to target ATM users even before chip and pin came in.

There were muggings a few years back targetting those with the white ear phones of an IPod. Should we ask Apple to produce a different colour???

What I'm looking for is evidence there is more of a problem now C&P is present. You haven't given it to me yet.

M.

James

MPH80 wrote: »

James,

What I asked for was evidence that muggings were increasing and becoming more dangerous.

What you've provided is that there are a number of muggings targetting credit cards.

There have been muggings for years targetting purses. Including a lot who use to target ATM users even before chip and pin came in.

There were muggings a few years back targetting those with the white ear phones of an IPod. Should we ask Apple to produce a different colour???

What I'm looking for is evidence there is more of a problem now C&P is present. You haven't given it to me yet.

M.

Sorry I can't give you statistics only examples of human beings being targetted, therefore IMHO for lots of people PINing isn't exactly safe.

Wouldn't you agree though that ALL Card Issuer should inform consumers that Chip & Signature Cards are available if they so wish one? (This once again IMHO is only complying with the Banking Code)

John_Pierpoint

Did we all enjoy, the usual apologists for the banks being wheeled out on the BBC this morning (Hullo Sanda Quinn you are becoming a household name:rolleyes:).

If banks in other countries can send a simple text or email every time cash is extracted from a bank account, why can that not be done in the UK? I think I am the only person who really knows if I used the ATM yesterday. That way, working together we could nip it in the bud.

If you missed it the summary story is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7031137.stm

Meanwhile over on my personal thread, there is a fine example of "T-Mobile" taking my personal security really seriously under the Data Protection Act.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=6432083&highlight=315000#post6432083