Child Stealing and Lying

meritaten

faithcecilia wrote: »

Without seeing exactly what the child does, I actually dont see the punishments as that bad. 20mins isn't long for a 9yr old to be in time-out - I personally think it should be until the child is genuinely sorry (I know a child who has been 3hrs before saying sorry!). And if she is hungry enough, she will eat what is put in front of her. I simply cannot abide fussy eaters and certainly wouldn't provide alternative food.

If you are concerned, then try to talk to your brother, otherwise I would leave it be - you don't know what might have led up to the dress issue etc, or how badly she may have behaved previously.

I am SHOCKED at YOU faithcecilia! I know you have been childminding and if 3 hours in time out is your idea of a suitable punishment for a child - words fail me! If you were minding my child and I found out that you had put them in time out for that long (or let them go hungry) you would be out the door with my boot up your backside!

punish a child for long enough or hard enough and that child will eventually say sorry - even if they DONT mean it! and I say this as a mother and a grandmother - which you arent and never will be. as your intention is to be a nun isnt it?

In my experience a child who has done wrong and knows they have - only need a few minutes to calm down to own up. UNLESS they are afraid of further punishment. A child who is over punished becomes very stubborn and will lie even though they know they are 'busted'. and forcing a child to say sorry when they dont mean it - thats plain stupid.

What you stated in your first paragraph concerns me! - not much human kindness there.

KiKi

faithcecilia wrote: »

I simply cannot abide fussy eaters and certainly wouldn't provide alternative food.

Define 'fussy'.

Most people think I'm fussy. I don't think I am. I don't refuse to eat food unless it's square, or unless it's covered in ketchup. I don't refuse to eat food unless it's not touching, or unless it comes in pairs. I never sat and whinged to my parents.

I just *genuinely* don't like a lot of food. I have a very sensitive stomach and pallet, and I just cannot touch anything spicy or herby. Eating foods I don't like the taste of makes me physically throw up. My parents made me eat a pizza once with lots of basil on it and I was sick after 15 minutes. I knew I would be because I could tell by the taste how I was going to react.

My parents always made me eat some of my dinner, even when I didn't want to. They made me eat peas and carrots which I detested. I now can't eat either of them - carrots make me gag at the taste. They didn't force me, but they were firm with me (which I'm very grateful for). But if a child isn't eating enough, they may feel forced to steal food - which is why a parent should at least ensure there is some food on the plate the child will eat, even if they don't like it all. That doesn't mean feeding them chips or anything bad for them, but making sure they are getting the right nutrients in foods they like.


20 minutes in time out is far too long for a 9 year old if it's happening regularly. I am *very* firm and disciplining with kids - and I also wouldn't let a child have dessert if they don't eat their dinner etc. But there is a difference between loving, firm discipline and calling a child "a manipulative little cow", not letting her out of the house with others, and making her stand alone for twenty minutes as a *regular* occurrence. That's very, very concerning to me.

I also doubt the OP would be so concerned if she thought this was a one-off, or if she thought the child probably had misbehaved and deserved the punishments. Most concern for things like this comes from a long-time observation or understanding that the child is deeply unhappy, or that something's very wrong.

OP, this probably won't be popular - but I would be a coward in this situation. As you've raised it with your brother before, and he's not interested, then I wouldn't raise it with him again, and I'd put in an anonymous call to SS or ask the school. Why? Because if you try to raise it seriously with your brother and he doesn't listen again, then if you raise it formally, he's much more likely to realise it came from you.

Yes, I'm a coward, but that's what I'd do if I were in your shoes right now.

KiKi

pigpen

Time out here is 5 minutes.. sitting on a chair.. no talking, fidgetting whining etc.. complete silence and stillness for 5 minutes.. whether they are 5 or 15.. as advised by a socia worker.. any longer than 5 minutes is a waste of time.. they drift into day dream land and they lay as well stand there forever more it accomplishes nothing but resentment.

This has echoes of the start of the abuse described by David Pelzer, A Child Called It... it started like this and he ended up almost dead a few years later because noone stood up for him or helped him..

I would bet she is hungry.. if she doesn't eat much at meal times.. is she actually fed when there is noone there? Is she underweight?

I would take my brother aside and speak to him IF he might be responsive.. if not then I'd ring the school and ask to speak to the child protection person and then also social services. It sounds like SIL has mental health issues which sorely need addressing.

And none of my children get pocket money.. and they wear ankle length dresses (the girls at any rate) so very Victorian looking probably.. esp as they wear them with petticoats and black ankle boots! They are not abused though!

Kiki.. I have exactly the same.. I have a fair few allergies so some stuff I cannot eat and I hate spicy stuff and OH's family do loads of Indian meals and other spicy stuff and I end up going hungry.. it is horrible.. they complain I am fussy and I really aren't, I like plain boring bland food.. it isn't difficult!

faithcecilia

meritaten wrote: »

I am SHOCKED at YOU faithcecilia! I know you have been childminding and if 3 hours in time out is your idea of a suitable punishment for a child - words fail me! If you were minding my child and I found out that you had put them in time out for that long (or let them go hungry) you would be out the door with my boot up your backside!

punish a child for long enough or hard enough and that child will eventually say sorry - even if they DONT mean it! and I say this as a mother and a grandmother - which you arent and never will be. as your intention is to be a nun isnt it?

In my experience a child who has done wrong and knows they have - only need a few minutes to calm down to own up. UNLESS they are afraid of further punishment. A child who is over punished becomes very stubborn and will lie even though they know they are 'busted'. and forcing a child to say sorry when they dont mean it - thats plain stupid.

What you stated in your first paragraph concerns me! - not much human kindness there.

Where did I say that I had left a child that long??? I said I know of one. I am just pointing out that different people have different rules, and its up to the parents to decide what they are. As someone who has worked with children for 15yrs on and off, I take my lead from the parents of the child in question. Just because I haven't had children myself doesnt mean I don't have a clue - I have more 'experience' than the mother of a toddler, giving birth does not instantly make you the perfect parent. I think children need boundaries, and one is eating what is put in front of them (unless its the odd food they really can't stomach at all). Letting kids get away with naughtiness only leads to even worse behaviour later.

faithcecilia

KiKi wrote: »

Define 'fussy'.

Op used the word fussy, so I don't know all the details in theis case, but to me its refusing to try things, insisting on them being cut a certain way, refusing something they have eaten happily the day before, etc. At 9 the child is old enough to know that money is tight and what is given to eat should be eaten. We were totally skint when I was young and I eat everything aside from being veggie, a moral choice not fussiness), we were a bit better off when my brother was the same age and he is fussy as you like. I knew there was no other choice so ate it, he knew there was so didn't. If a certain food actually makes a child sick/gag is a totally different matter.

KiKi

faithcecilia wrote: »

Op used the word fussy, so I don't know all the details in theis case, but to me its refusing to try things, insisting on them being cut a certain way, refusing something they have eaten happily the day before, etc.

Apologies, I didn't see that the OP had said she was 'fussy'.

I agree - I wouldn't provide alternative food just because it wasn't cut the right way or wasn't the right colour etc. I'm just so used to people calling me fussy when I just genuinely, genuinely don't like the taste! I'm also vegetarian through moral choice, which cuts down my options (as I don't like raw veggies either, so no salad for me, except leaves!), and doesn't help my cause!

KiKi

ska_lover

Different people definately do have different rules I agree.


I dont know if standing in silence for 20 minutes would be considered child abuse? It is a bit strong and It's not a punishment I have ever used myself, but if it IS abuse then we got abused regularly as children by our teachers, who would make us go and stand in the corner with our fingers on our lips for half an hour or more at a time.

I totally agree that children need boundaries.Im not trying to be controversial here, but I do see where the OP's sister in law is coming from on the dinner time thing. Imagine if you were cooking for five people each evening and night after night one of your children refused to eat your home cooking every single night and made mealtimes a warzone for the whole family - and then help themselves to treats out of the kitchen later? I must admit that I would never stand for this in my house, I would find it highly frustrating. It would it be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to provide a completely different meal for one child every evening and if she panders to this for this child, the other two might then decide they want the same. Oh noooo.

I have a son, and he tried this a few times when he was little - i.e turning his nose up at something he had happily ate in the past. I would tell him to eat up or there would be nothing else offered.

It does sound like your sil is singling out this child though and perhaps sees her as the 'problem' child out of the three, and the mealtime issue is not helping. I do honestly think if this mealtime issue was sorted it would take a lot of stress off of the mother and help build a better relationship between her and her daughter.

I feel really sorry for the little girl, andI think you should speak to your bother about your concerns.

Edit:- just to add, I didn't give pocket money to mine at that age either, and I imagine that this little girl isn't the only one in her class to not get any. You say her parents are struggling for cash and I fully understand that pocket money for kids to waste on sweeets is not high on the agenda.

Rachel021967

I would contact the headmistress about your concerns. They may have a word and suggest parenting classes. They may refer the matter to CAMHS and social services. Doing nothing will guarantee a life of loneliness, mental health problems and a life time of psychiatric drugs.

KiKi

ska_lover wrote: »

I totally agree that children need boundaries.Im not trying to be controversial here, but I do see where the OP's sister in law is coming from on the dinner time thing. Imagine if you were cooking for five people each evening and night after night one of your children refused to eat your home cooking every single night and made mealtimes a warzone for the whole family - and then help themselves to treats out of the kitchen later? I must admit that I would never stand for this in my house, I would find it highly frustrating. It would it be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to provide a completely different meal for one child every evening and if she panders to this for this child, the other two might then decide they want the same. Oh noooo.

I agree in principle with everything you're saying.

But if a child is stealing to eat, then just yelling and shouting, calling her a 'manipulative little cow' and sending her to her room or to stand in the corner for 20 minutes regularly isn't going to solve the problem. It won't make her sorry or help her eating habits. She'll only learn that yelling and shouting are the norm.

Coupled with the fact that she's not allowed out with her aunt, is being bullied at school, has no confidence, and is being given excessive punishments for no reason is concerning. She politely asks to wear a pair of jeans to a party instead of a dress and gets told she can't go - and is then punished for being upset about that?! And from what the OP says this isn't a one-off, it's a regular behaviour from the mother.

I'm sure the mother does need support, you're right - and in my previous post I wasn't really thinking about her, only the child. But the OP has enough concern to raise it with her brother and then here - and I'd agree she needs to get help for both from somewhere else.

KiKi

ska_lover

KiKi wrote: »

I agree in principle with everything you're saying.

But if a child is stealing to eat, then just yelling and shouting, calling her a 'manipulative little cow' and sending her to her room or to stand in the corner for 20 minutes regularly isn't going to solve the problem. It won't make her sorry or help her eating habits. She'll only learn that yelling and shouting are the norm.

Coupled with the fact that she's not allowed out with her aunt, is being bullied at school, has no confidence, and is being given excessive punishments for no reason is concerning. She politely asks to wear a pair of jeans to a party instead of a dress and gets told she can't go - and is then punished for being upset about that?! And from what the OP says this isn't a one-off, it's a regular behaviour from the mother.

I'm sure the mother does need support, you're right - and in my previous post I wasn't really thinking about her, only the child. But the OP has enough concern to raise it with her brother and then here - and I'd agree she needs to get help for both from somewhere else.

KiKi

It's really awful isnt it. I had a tear in my eye when i got to the OPs bit in the thread calling the daughter a manipulitive so and so. And not letting her wear her favorite jeans, I agree with what you say, think that just seems like the mother on a control trip for some reason.

It does sound to me like they are caught in a vicous circle with the mother belittling the child, and the child rebelling and then getting in trouble and the mother belittles her..etc

If only the mother could see what she is doing, fair enough the little girl may well be being naughty etc, but someone has got to be the grown up and put a stop to the vicous circle.