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4658? 4659? The "is my Visa Debit card any good?" thread!
DizzleUK
Posts: 569 Forumite
This post started off as a reply to the quote below, but by the time I had finished typing I decided it would be worth starting it in it's own thread as there is a lot of talk this weekend (and before that) about the value of the first 4 numbers of a Visa Debit card and what type of card people actually receive from their bank, and as this discussion was spreading out over the Credit Card section and the Budgeting and Bank Accounts section, it should be brought under one heading.
The below is my own thoughts and findings on the matter and as such I do not claim it to be 100% accurate or complete. So let the discussion commence!
I have two A&L Visa Debit Cards and both start 4659. Neither have ever been CGC cards, but both will work offline just fine.
However, after doing some pretty (anal) intensive research last night, I discovered something called the Positive Authorisation Mandatory Service Code.
Issuers of Visa Debit cards embed in the Chip and Magnetic strip a 3 digit code (this is not the CVV2 number in the signature strip) and these codes are read by the card reader in the shop, which tells them how the card should be processed. The middle number is the authorisation code digit. Cards with a Normal Authorisation Service Code can go through without online authorisation subject to floor limits. Cards with a PAMSC will need authorisation before payment is made.
There is no way just by looking at the card to tell which type of code is embedded in your card.
Furthermore, the first number in the 3 digit code indicates if the card can be used abroad or not and the 3rd digit indicates how the card should be validated (by PIN or by Signature).
All shop card readers should be able to read this 3 digit code, and I think this goes a long way to explain why we get people on here who start posts saying "my card won't work in shops that don't take chip&pin" or "I went to some country and my shi**y card didn't work" or "my card won't work on a train".
(I expect it goes some way to explain why Prepaid Mastercards don't always work either, but the information above is about Visa cards. I have done no research as to whether Mastercards system works the same way, though I see no reason why it doesn't.)
As far as I can work out (ignoring posts on MSE for the timebeing) a card's BIN (the first 4 numbers of a card) is just that- a Bank Identification Number.
The problem with some people arguing as to whether or not their new Visa Debit card is a "proper" debit card or nothing better than a Visa Electron card all seems to boil down to the ongoing process of banks ditching Electron and the BINs that were previously allocated to Electron cards are now being assigned to Visa Debit cards, and as these lists get updated it takes a while for the lists to be filtered through to merchants (shops etc) leading to some cards being treated as Electrons.
Now this is not to say that some banks do not segregate customers that require full authorisation for their transactions with different BINs to those who qualify for cards that can work offline. I expect they do, but I don't think they all do.
If anyone who works in the banking sector that can expand on the above (further than what anyone can find by using the search function on here and Google) then that would be great.
As they say, the floor is now open.....
The below is my own thoughts and findings on the matter and as such I do not claim it to be 100% accurate or complete. So let the discussion commence!
The 4659 cards for A&L are full-auth cards (I had a massive row with them about this - in some places it will still show up as Electron)
A&L's 'full' Visa Debits start 4567. OH's HSBC Visa Debit starts 4659 and I'm fairly sure thats not full-auth, but OH has the cheque guarantee Visa Debit with A&L and thats 4567.
I have two A&L Visa Debit Cards and both start 4659. Neither have ever been CGC cards, but both will work offline just fine.
However, after doing some pretty (anal) intensive research last night, I discovered something called the Positive Authorisation Mandatory Service Code.
Issuers of Visa Debit cards embed in the Chip and Magnetic strip a 3 digit code (this is not the CVV2 number in the signature strip) and these codes are read by the card reader in the shop, which tells them how the card should be processed. The middle number is the authorisation code digit. Cards with a Normal Authorisation Service Code can go through without online authorisation subject to floor limits. Cards with a PAMSC will need authorisation before payment is made.
There is no way just by looking at the card to tell which type of code is embedded in your card.
Furthermore, the first number in the 3 digit code indicates if the card can be used abroad or not and the 3rd digit indicates how the card should be validated (by PIN or by Signature).
All shop card readers should be able to read this 3 digit code, and I think this goes a long way to explain why we get people on here who start posts saying "my card won't work in shops that don't take chip&pin" or "I went to some country and my shi**y card didn't work" or "my card won't work on a train".
(I expect it goes some way to explain why Prepaid Mastercards don't always work either, but the information above is about Visa cards. I have done no research as to whether Mastercards system works the same way, though I see no reason why it doesn't.)
As far as I can work out (ignoring posts on MSE for the timebeing) a card's BIN (the first 4 numbers of a card) is just that- a Bank Identification Number.
The problem with some people arguing as to whether or not their new Visa Debit card is a "proper" debit card or nothing better than a Visa Electron card all seems to boil down to the ongoing process of banks ditching Electron and the BINs that were previously allocated to Electron cards are now being assigned to Visa Debit cards, and as these lists get updated it takes a while for the lists to be filtered through to merchants (shops etc) leading to some cards being treated as Electrons.
Now this is not to say that some banks do not segregate customers that require full authorisation for their transactions with different BINs to those who qualify for cards that can work offline. I expect they do, but I don't think they all do.
If anyone who works in the banking sector that can expand on the above (further than what anyone can find by using the search function on here and Google) then that would be great.
As they say, the floor is now open.....
Remember this: nothing worth doing is easy.
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Comments
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Everything you have said is correct, however my bank uses the same numbering for Offline and Online cards 4751 11 You can tell the difference between the online and the offline because one says Servicecard and the other says Debit card.
This is the same for RBS/Natwest where the Offline cards say Servicecard on the front.
The numbering has nothing to do with it. As you pointed out its all about the code in the Chip X2X and X0X Full auth and Fallback allowed.
4658 is the Full auth card number for Barclays, but it is the Offline number for Coventry BS.
There is no hard and fast rule for BIN numbers and what they mean.0 -
But most banks use the differing BIN numbers to help THEM work out the difference very quickly. The codes on the mag stripe have always been there (or at least for a long time) as the debit card schemes developed issuers needed a way of making the system work and in most cases could force online authorisations by using this method. It was only really a problem in paperbased vouchers where the mag stripe was never used therefore the BIN number change was an easy solution, and thats why Visa Electron was never embossed!These are my thoughts and no one else's, so like any public forum advice - check it out before entering into contracts or spending your hard earned cash!
I don't know everything, however I do try to point people in the right direction but at the end of the day you can only ever help yourself!0 -
Greetings!
First post on here after lurking for quite a while!!
My Barclays Debit Card starts 4659, which is the same as A&L in the first post?!?!?!?0 -
Hi,
Interesting, thanks!
My A&L Visa Debit / CGC starts with 4567 too.
My Co-Op (Cashminder basic account) card *was* a Visa Electron, until a few months back.
Co-Op then changed it, to a full Visa Debit (or at least it says, Visa Debit on the card) - the number on that is 4508.
I suspect that the Co-Op is still, essentially an 'unbranded' Electron card though!0 -
Have you really just posted your account number on the web???:eek:.
edit - I see the start date and sort code are all zeros and the two account numbers the same, so I'll let you off - still it's surprising what ppl'll do...You've never seen me, but I've been here all along - watching and learning...:cool:0 -
I'm a little unsure too. I have a HSBC Visa Debit without the Cheque Guarantee feature which starts 4659, but I used it in the pay at pump machine at Tesco on Saturday, so I'm thinking it is an off-line card.0
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I'm a little unsure too. I have a HSBC Visa Debit without the Cheque Guarantee feature which starts 4659, but I used it in the pay at pump machine at Tesco on Saturday, so I'm thinking it is an off-line card.
If it worked at Tesco then it is an offline card.Remember this: nothing worth doing is easy.0 -
I may try my Barclays Connect card in there too, see what happens....
Is the way to tell with Barclays, to see if the card has the contactless symbol on the front of it?
Depends how new your card is. I know that a contactless card is subject to status, so I would hazzard a guess and say that one without it is a full-auth card.Remember this: nothing worth doing is easy.0
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