Surge Protectors

westom

cit_k wrote: »

The better online UPS devices are online and always supply 'generated' mains, some supply it in the form of stepped wave to approximate a sine, some output better sign waves, these devices never supply direct AC, its inverted down, then inverted back up again.

So a power circuit inside that UPS - equivalent or less than what already must exist inside all electronic appliances - somehow that lesser UPS circuit does that the appliance power supply does not?

Anything that UPS does for transient protection is already inside electronics.

So you spent $500+ for a UPS that only does what or less than what is already inside electronics appliances? How does that make any sense?

If correct, then you have UPS spec numbers to prove your claim. Those numbers do not exist. You are posting a popular urban myth that can exist only when manufacturer spec numbers are not provided.

Most all UPSes connect an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode; so that power is 'cleaner'. When is a UPS output 'dirtiest'? When in battery backup mode. So 'dirty' as to be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Since electronics already contain superior protection, that same 'dirty' UPS power is ideal and non-destructive electricity to electronics.

Anything that UPS might do is already inside appliances.



So your UPS will stop surges of 6000 volts and 6500 amps. Well let's assume it does its best. Does the maximum voltage and current. The standard surge (defined by the ANSI/IEEE C62.41 waveform) is 550 joules. How does that 550 joules stop a typically destructive surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Your numbers demonstrate near zero protection. How many joules does it actually list - as required for a UL listing. My estimate from your numbers says 550 joules. What does that UPS manufacturer claim?

How does that UPS absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? What is their number in manufacturer's numeric specs?

D.K.

Gosh, I wondered that too...

Basil1234

D.K. wrote: »

Gosh, I wondered that too...

:rotfl: seems to be the train of thought from alot of users too. I'm starting to belive he may have worked for mcains or maybe was the paint factory fumes were just too strong? who knows maybe there would be a conspricey theroy on that as well? maybe the dulux dog was a dealer and not a dog at all?

all this and more to come unfornuately from the amazing american who knows more than anyone because his friend told him about it! WAFJ
if it wasn't so funny think i might cry for another reason

btw message for westom keep up the good work all is looking good here :T

cit_k

westom wrote: »

So a power circuit inside that UPS - equivalent or less than what already must exist inside all electronic appliances - somehow that lesser UPS circuit does that the appliance power supply does not?

Anything that UPS does for transient protection is already inside electronics.

So you spent $500+ for a UPS that only does what or less than what is already inside electronics appliances? How does that make any sense?

What makes you think the circuitry inside every electronic device is at least equivalent to or better than the protection circuitry in a decent UPS?

Many electronic devices have little to no protection, some do, some dont...

Some simply have a fuse, transformer, bridge rectifier. smoothing caps and feed the output to a voltage regulator for the DC voltages, for example many alarm systems use this method, as does lots of older electrical equipment.

There is nothing special surge wise in that setup, once the rectified voltage exceeds the ratings for the voltage regulator (probably around 40 to 50v) its going to be in trouble, thats if the transformer or other primary components dont fry first.

In fact, you can even buy add on protection (in the form of MOV's that are wired by the installer to the mains) for many alarm systems, as they dont even have that built in to them in many cases.

Switch mode power supplies will fail if massively overloaded, on PC's with 120/240 v selectors, your logic would mean you could switch it to 120v and power it with 240 and it would not blow up as it would be protected, however, it would blow, its happened before....

westom wrote: »

If correct, then you have UPS spec numbers to prove your claim. Those numbers do not exist. You are posting a popular urban myth that can exist only when manufacturer spec numbers are not provided.

Use google, find some UPS devices and look, they list either the volts/amps of protection or a joules rating. They also often have a warrany for connected equipment, so even if it fails, your equipment can be replaced in theory.

westom wrote: »

Most all UPSes connect an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode; so that power is 'cleaner'. When is a UPS output 'dirtiest'? When in battery backup mode. So 'dirty' as to be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Since electronics already contain superior protection, that same 'dirty' UPS power is ideal and non-destructive electricity to electronics.

Anything that UPS might do is already inside appliances.

Read up on UPS devices, you will find that not all are like that.

Cheaper ones yes, but a half decent one will supply a faked AC mains waveform, which is isolated from the real mains, as its stepped down using a transformed, then filtered/regulated then stepped back up again, the mains is never supplied direct to the appliance in these models.

They can also cope with over and under voltage from the power provider by sensing the input voltage and using different taps on the transformer as required to obtain the right voltages needed.

Which appliances do this? Certainly not every appliance, in fact I can only think of one, a UPS.....

The output from a UPS is not always dirty either, some are very rough approximations of a sine wave, so dirty in that respect, but good ones are a close approximation of a sine wave, and they should always be at the right voltage.

This means not only is the device subject to whatever protection the UPS offers, its is always being supplied with a steady voltage, of the correct amount, and not having to cope with prolonged over voltage situations, which can cause overheating of the powered device. Add to that a warranty for your connected equipment, and the fact it does not die in a power cut, and its a win win....

westom

cit_k wrote: »

What makes you think the circuitry inside every electronic device is at least equivalent to or better than the protection circuitry in a decent UPS?

Because I designed them. Because it is required by international standards. Because I learned this stuff before posting. Because I am posting technical numbers whereas you cannot and refuse to do.

All appliances contain superior protection. And then we look at the output of a typical UPS in battery backup mode. Electricity that may be so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors or power strip protectors. That 'dirty' electricity is perfectly normal to electronics - because routine protection inside all electronics is that superior. Protection you claim does not exist.


Your lack of technical knowledge is obvious when you say, "Switch mode power supplies will fail if massively overloaded". Power supply outputs can be shorted and a power supply must never fail. A standard that existed long before PCs existed. Overloaded power supply simply goes into a well understood function that you did not know: "current foldback limiting". You would know that with basic electrical knowledge. And that is the point. You do not even know this stuff. You do not even know all appliances have significant internal protection. Instead, you are posting popular sales myths.

Claims without numbers. You were challenged to provide numbers. You cannot provide spec numbers because no such numbers exist. You know only because they told you what to believe. You did not even view the numbers and now refuse to provide them - because no numbers exist.

You claimed 6000 volts and 6500 amps. How does 550 joules stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of volts? Still waiting for you to answer that question. You made that claim. Please explain that numerical discrepancy.

How many joules does it actually list - as required for a UL listing? My estimate from your numbers says 550 joules. What does that UPS manufacturer claim? Why do you not answer?

That UPS does one function - to provide power during blackouts. To protect unsaved data. The function of a plug-in UPS - as demonstrated by numbers you did not learn and refuse to provide.

thebyp

Westom is right, the bulk of modern appliances contain some form of switching or RCD in order to protect it. However given how cheap surge protection power strips are, if you are going to buy one, you may as well buy one with it in it. Especially if you are going to use it on your PC.

Much easier and cheaper to replace a surge strip than the PSU on a PC for the average Joe.

Lil306

I refer back to my previous posts. Westom no one really cares what you have to say, you are only here to try and prove you know better than everyone else factual or not. No one really cares around comparisons between holy water and electronic protection, what you fail to grasp is that people who come to forums asking questions do not need to know the ins and outs of how things work. They need clear concise information such as yes or no answers because 9/10 they don't understand enough about the product in question. No one really cares if the electrics are failing to comply with standards, it's a simple yes or no answer.

You claimed 6000 volts and 6500 amps. How does 550 joules stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of volts? Still waiting for you to answer that question.

Let me guess, you're waiting for their reply to shoot them down. I'm actually having fun reading this topic, it's becoming comical for no other reason than your willy waving antics and look at me posts. Where are your qualifications which say you are suitable to post these replies that you claim to know ?

This really begs to answer something , where's the answer to my question, where is your article that you have written and submitted which proves the electronics around surge protectors to be false?

thebyp wrote: »

Westom is right, the bulk of modern appliances contain some form of switching or RCD in order to protect it. However given how cheap surge protection power strips are, if you are going to buy one, you may as well buy one with it in it. Especially if you are going to use it on your PC.

Much easier and cheaper to replace a surge strip than the PSU on a PC for the average Joe.

Most likely, I made a post in one of my earlier replies that given their replies I assumed they were some form of electronics engineer or similar. At the end of the day, the information being provided by Westom is useless, unless the person understands electronics or is really interested in reading boring replies. Just because I understand computers doesn't mean my replies are 4 pages long bashing peoples replies who are wrong, I merely post the information they want to read and understand

westom has a vested (financial) interest in whole-house surge
suppressers and nothing he says should be taken at face value. He
frequently posts totally incorrect information (for example, he is
unable to differentiate between a direct lightning strike, which almost
no-one can realistically protect against, and a surge caused by a nearby
lightning strike, which has straightforward, effective and well-proven
counter-measures).

westom (who has also posted as westom1, w_tom and w_tom1, he morphs his
posting ID to evade killfiles) has been abusing Usenet for many years
and a common practice of his is lying and twisting what others say to
suit his own agenda.

Westom, seems like I'm not the only one who thinks your posts are rubbish and piles of crap and excerpt or however it's spelt

Lil306

Actually I won't waste my time feeding trolls like Westom.

Just to prove you're a troll

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=GJ0&q=westom+surge&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

You made a post in one forum about a suspected faulty PSU. How no parts should be swapped over without first putting a multimeter on all the wires. That is correct, you can test for faulty PSUs by measuring the voltages on the wires it's definately a more precise method of diagnosing faults if you want to be sure or have the time to do it but there is no need.

In an industry such as computing there is no need to test it further if you already know what the fault is. I've never once had to use a multimeter to test PSU wires, I either replace it knowing it's already faulty (through experience) or for PSUs I suspect are faulty I use a PSU Tester (which measures all the wires at once)

D.K.

OMG! I just looked at that link.

Is there a picture anywhere in case I see him in the pub and don't want to hear about surge protectors?

cit_k

Quoting weston, his replies normal text, mine in bold


Because I designed them. Because it is required by international standards. Because I learned this stuff before posting. Because I am posting technical numbers whereas you cannot and refuse to do.

All appliances contain superior protection.

You have designed every single electric appliance on this planet? As that is the only way you know what is inside every appliance?

I have already proved they do not, you have just proved either an inability to read, or an inability to grasp what you have read and comprehend it.

And then we look at the output of a typical UPS in battery backup mode. Electricity that may be so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors or power strip protectors. That 'dirty' electricity is perfectly normal to electronics - because routine protection inside all electronics is that superior. Protection you claim does not exist.

What are you on about?
Specifics?
What protection do they have that is superior to the protection inside a good ups?


Your lack of technical knowledge is obvious when you say, "Switch mode power supplies will fail if massively overloaded". Power supply outputs can be shorted and a power supply must never fail. A standard that existed long before PCs existed. Overloaded power supply simply goes into a well understood function that you did not know: "current foldback limiting". You would know that with basic electrical knowledge. And that is the point. You do not even know this stuff.

Again, your ability to grasp the obvious is outstanding - any idiot can grasp (especially as I specifically was talking about and mentioned input) the supply( input) to the PSU, not the outputs, which are a completely different kettle of fish, as any sensible person knows.

I know fine well what happens if you short the outputs, it shuts down.
I know fine well what happens if you run it on 240 when it should be ran on 120, it will go up in smoke.
We are talking about protection for the input to devices, not once have we talked about what happens to the output of a power supply, its a completely different subject, and a poor attempt to hide your lack of understanding.



You do not even know all appliances have significant internal protection. Instead, you are posting popular sales myths.

I gave an example, its not a myth, I have several devices that do not have any thing more than a simple transformer/rectifier/fuse/smoothing/3 pin regulator type power circuitry.


Claims without numbers. You were challenged to provide numbers. You cannot provide spec numbers because no such numbers exist. You know only because they told you what to believe. You did not even view the numbers and now refuse to provide them - because no numbers exist.

You claimed 6000 volts and 6500 amps. How does 550 joules stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of volts? Still waiting for you to answer that question. You made that claim. Please explain that numerical discrepancy.


Why would it? If a manufacter rates an Item at X volts or X amps, only a complete idiot would expect it to protect more than its rated values safely. It may well protect at a higher level, as devices tend to err on the side of caution in the ratings, but the limits are set clear as day.

How many joules does it actually list - as required for a UL listing? My estimate from your numbers says 550 joules. What does that UPS manufacturer claim? Why do you not answer?

I already told you, you can find those numbers very easily with google, If you are incapable of doing that, then you should really not be going near any electronic design of power supplies....


That UPS does one function - to provide power during blackouts. To protect unsaved data. The function of a plug-in UPS - as demonstrated by numbers you did not learn and refuse to provide

You really do not understand anything about decent UPS devices do you?
I guess you work for a company that sells a rival product to UPS/Surge protectors etc, which would explain your obsession?