Surge Protectors

westom

Lil306 wrote: »

Offtopic - Anyone else think Belkin makes some good !!! products?

Not off topic. If being honest, you posted those Belkin numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. You cannot. Belkin never makes numeric claims for protection.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protectors parts. Sell that 'surge protector' for $7 in a grocery store. Or get other to hype myths. Then sell it for $25 or $80 as a Belkin. Same protector circuit. Same numeric specs. But with more advertising, then Lil306 'knows' is must be surge protection. Knows so much that he posts mockery rather than technical facts.

How many joules? How does that Belkin absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Simple. Make sure Lil306 does not read any spec numbers. Then hearsay will recommend it.

Informed homowners channel tens times less money into an effective and superior solution so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. Only more responsible manufacturers provide effective solutions such as General Electric, Siemens, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Keison, Polyphaser, or Intermatic. Protectors designed to be earthed - therefore can be effective.

Effective protection is always about where energy dissipates. So Belkin and Lil306 will not discuss that energy. Hopes you ignore its so few joules. Will not discuss earth ground. And ... well .... where is that Belkin specification that even claims any surge protection? Oh. Belkin will not even claim protection in its own specs. But Belkin has Lil306 to do that for them.

Informed homowners can purchase effective products from more responsible companies. Well understood even 100 years ago: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. And does not have that obscene profit margin.

Lil306

westom wrote: »

random babble here

What you on about, I posted no specs for Belkins equipment. Must be your mind fabricating things again.

I'm not interested in what you have say westom, it's obvious your an attention seeker. The only time your ever active is when you see a forum with the word surge protector. Then it's "look at me" watch my witty retort trounce these fools

Anways, I suggest this topic is dropped. Since there won't be any decent replies with Westom lurking around except 10 billion reasons why all the companies are wrong and he / she / it is right

BTW Westom, you still haven't answered my two points

1 - Why do you talk about yourself in third person so much. You do it all the time on other forums I've found where your name appears, and I'm positive it was proven to be a sign of mental instability or at least a theory behind it. It's not smart, just the attitude of a posh snob in my opinion

2 - Most important... why haven't you posted an article discussing why surge protectors don't work. Give some solid evidence to the surge protector / electronics industry and profiteer from it, but then again doing that would be smart

I don't claim to know the first thing when it comes to electronics, anyone who knows me knows I'm like water to electricity and electrical components. So are your statements, the lengths you are going to prove you are right is pointless. It's just technical sounding words to try and pretend you know what you're talking about. Whether or not you do is a different thing, as in the IT industry if you speak technical to everyone you won't get very far, because you confuse people easily

That's why your replies are pointless. They may be well constructed to argue why surge protectors do / don't work, but your statements are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Anyway, I'll forget replying to this topic and stick to the other ones. I'll let mods deal with your ASW posts

westom

alanwjones wrote: »

I have a Belkin laptop surge protector on all my laptops(4) after one sacrificed itrelf on a flash and masses of smoke, saved my laptop though, ...

MOV manufactures are quite blunt. No protector must 'sacrifice itself'. MOV destruction violates manufacturer specifications AND is a fire hazard.

A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection in the laptop easily destroyed a grossly undersized protector. So you said, "It sacrificed itself to save your laptop." Classic junk science conclusion. Reality: a surge confronted the protector and laptop equally and simultaneously. That is what electricity does. Same current is everywhere in a path from cloud to earth. Protector parts inside a protector disconnected / destructed as fast as possible. Left the laptop to protect itself. Grossly undersizing a protector got you to recommend it. Laptop saved itself.

Effective protectors must never fail during the surge. MOV manufacturers bluntly state that requirement. Effective protector is sized to earth direct lightning strikes without failure. Effective protection means nobody even knew a surge existed.

Only the informed will recommend an effective protector. An effective protector does not fail catastrophically. An effective protector means nobody knew the surge existed. To sell to the least informed, grossly undersize it. Then sell a £2 power strip with some five pence protector parts for £20 or £100. Undersizing promotes myths and obscenly profitable sales.

westom

Lil306 wrote: »

What you on about, I posted no specs for Belkins equipment.

Exactly the point. You post mockery and disparaging remarks. You post no technical specs or basic electrical concepts. Nothing says your Belkin does anything more than enrich Belkin.

Why drop the topic? I am not done using you to demonstrate why so many foolishly buy only what they are told to buy. Never once ask a simple damning queston. Never view spec numbers. You are a perfect example of an 'expert' who forgot to learn facts, who makes recommendations that even the manufacturer will not claim, and then prove your accusations by posting mockery and insult.

A classic example of what Belkin needs to maintain obscene profit margins.

Yes, you make recommendations. Claim a plug-in protector does what even Belkin will not claim. Somehow you know BT is a fool for spending less money on protectors that make direct lightning strikes irrelevant? Somehow you know hundreds of joules inside a Belkin protector will absorb destructive surges - hundreds of thousands of joules? Yes, somehow you know all that rather than first learn what was well understood even 100 years ago.

As you said, "... really couldn't be bothered to read all above this time in the morning. It's far too much". Many people cannot read what is too new and that exposes overt personal biases. Cited in point after point is why you recommend a Belkin. What was understood 100 years ago and is routine even in space launch facilities (so that rockets do not explode) - that was just too difficult for you to learn? A perfect example for why Belkin gets recommended to unsuspecting consumers.

The word scam should be discussed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. So, where does Belkin claim that protection? It doesn't. Belkin will not even discuss that always required short connection to earth. Why do you claim protection that Belkin will not? Where are those numeric specifications? Where is that always required short connection to earth? Reality from 100 years ago is too complicated to read?

Informed consumers can protect all household appliances for about £1 per appliance - even from direct lightning strikes. Simply do what BT and others have done 100 years ago.

kwikbreaks

Lil306 wrote: »

Surge protectors only protect from overloads in electrical current so your household equipment doesn't fry (basically faulty wiring).

Can you explain how faulty wiring generates a surge? If so maybe we have the answer to the energy crisis - all we need is a pile of faulty wiring to generate some energy from nowhere. Surges are created by things like electrical motors and are part and parcel of the mains power environment and mains powered equipment is designed to cope with that already. To fully protect against those types of transient spikes you need the sort of mains smoothing kit HiFi users buy which costs a packet.

Lil306 wrote: »

They're not designed to cope with major lightning strikes, that's what the earthing boxes attached to houses are for.

Nothing will protect you from a nearby lightning strike. Get one and anything plugged in will fry.

Regarding the obviously faulty surge protector which nearly caught fire - proof that they should be avoided in my opinion.

Lil306

My one and only detailed reply as I hate typing

westom wrote: »

////

I have never claimed to be an expert in the field I simply don't like you, your posts are in no way useful to the normal consumer who knows nothing about surge protectors and the fact that you are an attention seeking troll. All you do is join forums which have a mention of "surge protectors" post your technical facts and argue on why they are useless then disappear like a ghost.

Where you may have, or claim to have knowledge of electronics and surge protectors. Arguing why they are fake you are still the average unknown Joe Bloggs posting technical detail after technical detail of why surge protectors don't work.

As a consumer who would be considering purchasing the product. I would not be interested in this information, because I wouldn't understand it. What a consumer is looking for is definitive answers to "does it work" questions. That is why people buy from companies like Belkin, APC, Sears selling surge protectors. Even though they may not understand, they trust the people who are the specialists in the field.

Now, as I stated earlier in my question. Should you have posted an article and submitted it for industry discussion which was then proven you would have provided stronger substance as to why people should be saving their money and not buying surge protectors, but because you haven't you are just another person having a rant. The only people who will understand you are those in the same field as you or those who study electronics. That is why there are no point in your detailed answers, only a few will understand them.

If I went into technical details over computer problems I'd lose customers quickly, because it confuses them easily as they don't understand. Customers need clear concise information so it helps them understand what they are buying into and not the technical details along the lines of "Maximum MOVs' and law of NIST" whether or not surge protectors are a false economy

westom wrote: »

As you said, "... really couldn't be bothered to read all above this time in the morning. It's far too much".

Yes, I said this because it was really far too much to read at 3am in the morning when I was posting and couldn't be bothered to type a reply. Nothing else.

kwikbreaks wrote: »

Can you explain how faulty wiring generates a surge?

I worded it badly, what I meant by this was a badly wired socket such as one where the earth wire isn't connected or one where it hasn't been properly connected. Stands more chance of sending the overload in electrical voltage through the relevant equipment connected to the socket because the electricity will try to find earth and a piece of equipment which has a properly grounded earth is most likely to be the candidate as a conductor for the electricity.

Now if there was a properly grounded earth on the wall socket, the electrity stands more chance of going to the grounded earth in the socket than passing through to the connected equipment. I hope that is more easier to understand sorry for the confusion of what I meant

Nothing will protect you from a nearby lightning strike. Get one and anything plugged in will fry.Regarding the obviously faulty surge protector which nearly caught fire - proof that they should be avoided in my opinion.

How nearby, and what type of lightning strike. Direct, or Indirect. I've had lightning strikes frequently around half a mile from my house and all my equipment has been safe. When they have been particularly bad and I've been using my PCs my surge protector has actually tripped and shut them down. So I'd like to think it's doing it's job.

Topic is getting long now so I can't remember all the posts about if a surge protector that nearly caught fire or not. If it started melting then definately unsafe but if it simply tripped and heated up you could say it did it's job. If it has been released to the general public then it has passed all the sufficient testing standards in the industry which means it's safe. Again..... I can't remember that post so don't know the details surrounding it

westom

Lil306 wrote: »

I have never claimed to be an expert in the field I simply don't like you, your posts are in no way useful to the normal consumer who knows nothing about surge protectors and the fact that you are an attention seeking troll. ...

Lil306 wrote: »

Now if there was a properly grounded earth on the wall socket, the electrity stands more chance of going to the grounded earth in the socket than passing through to the connected equipment. I hope that is more easier to understand sorry for the confusion of what I meant

You admit to no knowledge. Then why are you posting recommendations? You admit to electrical ignorance. Cannot even bother to learn simple concepts. You admit to posting only because you hate. You hate me because I provided effective solutions AND why those solutions are effective. People with contempt for science must post hate when exposed posting lies. You even admit you do not know this stuff. So why are you posting? Hate?

Why does propaganda work? Some only believe what they are first told to believe. Then attack others who provide facts, reality, and the always necessary reasons why. By your own admission - you don't know why protectors work. You are only posting because you hate.

You don't want to first learn. Otherwise you might learn how easily propaganda gets you to *know*. You want to be an expert without even doing the work. Shame on you for foolishly advocating scams. For posting only what others 'ordered' you to say. You recommend a Belkin protector to do what even Belkin does not claim to do. Why do you believe only what others 'ordered' you to think? You were taught in junior high science how to think. Why do you even not do that?

You did not even read Belkin's layman specifications. Where is that Belkin spec that claims protection? Does not exist. You were challenged to post it. Due to hate, you will not even admit: protection numbers do not exist. Propaganda (advertisers) "ordered" you to believe myths. Easier is to parrot those myths rather than learn - do the work. When challenged to think, you reply - by your own admission - with hate.

I've had lightning strikes frequently around half a mile from my house and all my equipment has been safe. ... my surge protector has actually tripped and shut them down.

Somehow a millimeters gap stopped what three miles of sky could not? Quoted is your lie. Somehow a gap that takes milliseconds to create stopped a lightning current that is done in microseconds? Quoted is why you are even lying to yourself. Even Belkin does not claim to do that. Quoted is your wild speculation. Provided are simple numbers that expose your speculation.

Myths and wild speculation explains an obscenely overpriced Belkin recommendation. Others work hard to learn before knowing something. You cannot be bothered. Now you essentially admit to promoting a scam because it is profitable.

Shame on you for posting recommendations here. And thank you for demonstrating to others why scams are so easily promoted by those with contempt for logic and simple science. Thank you for demonstrating why junk science is alive and well. And why that Belkin was recommended.

The informed consumer upgrades earthing and installs only one 'whole house' protector. Spends tens or 100 times less money for protection even from direct lightning strikes. Effective solutions are provided only by responsible companies such as Siemens, Square D, Intermatic, Leviton, Polyphaser, Keison, Clipsal, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer. Definitely not on a 'responsible' list are products recommended only by myths (and hate) such as Monster Cable or Belkin.

kwikbreaks

Lil306 wrote: »

I worded it badly, what I meant by this was a badly wired socket such as one where the earth wire isn't connected or one where it hasn't been properly connected. Stands more chance of sending the overload in electrical voltage through the relevant equipment connected to the socket because the electricity will try to find earth and a piece of equipment which has a properly grounded earth is most likely to be the candidate as a conductor for the electricity.

Now if there was a properly grounded earth on the wall socket, the electrity stands more chance of going to the grounded earth in the socket than passing through to the connected equipment. I hope that is more easier to understand sorry for the confusion of what I meant

This is plain wrong. The earth is for safety and nothing whatsover to do with voltage spikes. If there is an electrical fault in a device which would make the casing live and that casing is earthed then the RCD trips if one is fitted or the fuse blows if there isn't one. Nothing more nothing less.

Even if your idea was correct then a surge proteted socket does nothing to correct the earthing.

Basil1234

specs for westom who doesnt seem to have made a convincing arguement only that he can argue about it and the general term hes right (its easy to be crictal, easyiest thing in the world to do! be construcive well thats a different matter but i doubt we will ever see that) by the way heres the specs and they do say 'joules' amazing when you look properly you wouldn't look so silly

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=135041
The Gold Series offers top-level surge protection for your professional workstations, Home Cinema, DSS systems, Projection TVs, 2-line business phones, DSL/Cable modems, and more. this model boasts 3240 Joules, 90,000 Maximum Spike Amperage, 7-sockets and a lifetime £Unlimited Connected Equipment and Data Recovery Warranties.

in fact they all cope with 6000volts and amps between 19500 and upto 90,000
dont belive us have a look for yourself
http://www.belkin.com/uk/powersolutions/products/

alanwjones

I don't pretend to know a lot about surge protectors, But I can confirm what I said in my previous post, I had a fault which caused the surge protector to cut out in a puff of smoke and a huge flash, There was a strong smell of burning from the surge protector, but the laptop was safe, I surmise had the fault that caused the cut out reached my laptop it would be well and truly fried,
OH, concerning Belkin warranty etc, I called them to report what happened and a New unit was shipped out overnight and was delivered 8.30 following morning,
I have complete confidence in the Belkin brand . Alan.