Surge Protectors

Lil306

Did a quick search for technical specs on a random surge protector (i.e Belkin). Here's some info on their site (at bottom) No clue what it means if at all I care. I'd rather pay £40 for piece of mind regardless if something does or does not work. I mainly use it for the extra benefits it carries for more power

http://www.belkin.com/surgeprotection/clamp-on/

P.S.....

1 - Why haven't you posted your technical qualifications ?
2 - Why haven't you wrote an article to backup your information that surge protector industry is fake, scared it will put you out of work ?

It's not that I actually care, it's just amusing seeing 4 paragraphs of replies. You should go join a forum like barryboys they'd love you on there. They take the mick out of random smart aleks as much as themselves. I think you'd fit right in. You might have to go around driving a car like a chav tho

westom

HTML200 wrote: »

Logically:

HTML200 wrote: »

We're talking about protecting an appliance beyond the mains point. That effectively means that some part of the circuit has to determine what is more power than the appliance can safely handle, and then dump the excess 'power' into the earth, rather than channeling it through the appliance.

That's what power surge protectors claim to do better than than appliances' own power supplies, and I think specifically they claim to be able to handle power spikes more effectively than appliances' own power supply units (PSU's). i.e., they react faster.

Specifically, what's your evidence against this claim?

Faster? Every protector device operates more than fast enough. Reaction time is irrelevant.

They (plug-in manufacturers) do not claim what you have posted in their numerical specs. Subjective sales brochures only imply what is does - ie absorb or block surges. Complete nonsense when its hundreds of joules cannot absorb destructive surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. Sales brochure spin can even imply protection from hurricane winds. The only place that a claim matters – where they can be sued for lying – is the numeric specification. Where do the numeric specs many any protection claims?

Effective protectors must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. One of so many reasons why is ‘impedance’. For example, a wall receptacle connects through 50 feet of safety ground to the breaker box. That 12 AWG wire would be less than 0.2 ohms resistance. And maybe 120 ohms impedance. A trivial 100 amp surge arrives at the protector and TV. Confronts both simultaneously (because the current flows equally everywhere in the circuit). 100 amps times 120 ohms is 12,000 volts. That TV and protector are now at something less than 12,000 volts. Ineffective because the protector has virtually no connection to earth ground.

Not only must a 'whole house' protector connect short to earth. Other critical parameters include no sharp wire bends, no splices, wire not inside metallic conduit, wire separated from all other wires, etc. What does that wall receptacle do? Violates most if not every requirements. A plug-in protector has no earthing. A surge assumed earthed by safety ground induces surges on all other adjacent wires. Now that surge is all over the building.

Again, protection means energy must not be inside a building. Once inside a building, a surge hunts for earth destructively via appliances. Listed above are only some reasons why.

What happens with that 12,000 volts? One IEEE brochure shows a protector simply earthing that surge 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. The protector could not absorb energy. So it earthed that surge destructively through some household appliance.

Why do many protectors fail when an appliance does not? Both are confronted equally and simultaneously by the same voltage. A surge too small to damage any appliance, instead, destroys a grossly undersized protector. Routine is to have no appliance damage in a house – but a failed protector. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts sells for $25 or $100. Undersizing it gets the naïve to recommend it. And lowers its cost – increases profit margin.

All appliances protected themself from a trivial surge. The protector self destructed and disconnected faster. Abandoned the appliance to confront the surge alone. What also defines an effective protector? Earths a direct lightning strike and remains functional.

Four or seven different reasons why a plug-in protector is ineffective? MOV manufacturer datasheets are blunt about this. No protector must fail catastrophically. That failure is a complete violation MOV manufacturer specs. But catastrophic failure from a surge too small to harm appliances gets an ill informed homeowner to claim, "My surge protector sacrificed itself to save my TV."

Install one 'whole house' protector so that all surges are irrelevant. A typical direct lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So the minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Designed to earth even direct lightning strikes and not be damaged. So robust as to make all other lesser surges also irrelevant.

Telcos have been doing this even 100 years ago. Protectors to protect 'sensitive' electronics are located where each and every wire enters the building. As close to earth ground as possible. AND up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Separation increases protection. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace their computer? Telco COs suffer about 100 surges with every thunderstorm. And no damage because every protector is at earth ground – and separated by something less than 50 meters from electronics.

Either a protector connects surge energy within feet to earth ground (see the above discussion about wire impedance). Or it does what those Belkin, et al numeric specs claim. Plug-in protectors do not claim protection in numbers. No earth ground means no effective protection.

One professional demonstrates effective protection in an application note. Even an underground wire must connect to single point ground before entering the building:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

Every incoming wire must first connect short to the same earth ground. AC electric and phone wires must be earthed via a protector. Cable TV and satellite dish need no protectors. Those cables get connected directly to earth ground. Wire provides complete surge protection. Again, no protector is protection. What is the only thing always required in every protection layer? Single point earth ground. Either that connection to protection is via a protector or it is connected by wire. A connection without sharp wire bends, no splices, separated from non-grounding wires, etc. Even a sharp wire bend can compromise protection. Same reason why effective protectors also connect as close as possible to earth ground.

I have tried to simplify this as much as possible. These concepts were learned even by early 20th Century ham radio operators. Are that well understood where science trumps junk science myths. So well proven that direct lightning strike no longer cause explosions in munitions dumps. In one case, has to be corrected in a nuclear hardened maritime radio station.

Wire impedance so critical that even sharp wire bends may subvert protection. All incoming wires must make a short connection to the one critical, and best earth ground – single point ground. What ineffective protectors do not connect to and will not discuss. Examples demonstrate why a protector is more effective separated from appliances and only as effective as its earth ground.

If this is insufficient, then learn more from Polyphaser's highly regarded application notes:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx
I simply have too much more to post and this is already far too long. Polyphaser is a highly regarded technical source.

westom

Lil306 wrote: »

Did a quick search for technical specs on a random surge protector (i.e Belkin). http://www.belkin.com/surgeprotection/clamp-on/

I asked for the spec numbers AND you tell me why it is significant. Since that sales brochure does not list protection from each surge, then it says nothing.

Well is does say 885 joules. That circuit means it uses 290 joules and never more than 590 joules for protection. How does that hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?

Where is the protection? Your sales brochure says 'near zero' protection. I asked for you to commit to each spec numbers. Why is each number significant? Easy if you had the always required knowledge to justify a recommendation. Even your URL says 'near zero' protection.

Where does the spec list a dedicated connection to earth ground? None exists - no effective protection. Where does the spec discuss earthing? None exists - no effective protection. It says 'near zero' protection AND meet both characteristics of the ineffective protector.

And still nobody will provide the numeric spec that lists protection from earth type of surge. Such a simple challenge. If the protector was effective, then anyone should post each relevant number. Nobody does. A URL to a sales brochure that claims no protection? That is the best anyone can do? Yes.

An informed homeowner installs one 'whole house' protector from responsible manufacturers such as Leviton, Square D, Polyphaser, Intermatic, Siemens, General Electric, Cutler-Hammer, et al. Instead we have a protector from Belkin that, at best, claims 'near zero' protection. So what happens to that surge? Does energy just magically disappear? Apparently.

Basil1234

right westom lets start at the begining.

i'm going to write out bulltin point numbers and i would like answers to each rather than you just answering what you want to answer i think this is a fair way to everyone here as you seem to me to be avoiding answering alot of questions.

1. my question to you and on this i would like a clear answer on this what preciously are your electrical qualifications and electrical certifications at all if any?

2. you said
Exactly which number do you refer? Quote it. Don't waste bandwidth with only a URL or “do a google search”. If a manufacturer spec number makes that claim, then post that number. Tell us specifically which number makes that claim. Telling anyone you just know is classic junk science. Where are the spec numbers?

answers in joules as requested
http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=135041
The Gold Series offers top-level surge protection for your professional workstations, Home Cinema, DSS systems, Projection TVs, 2-line business phones, DSL/Cable modems, and more. This model boasts 3240 Joules, 90,000 Maximum Spike Amperage, 7-sockets and a lifetime £Unlimited Connected Equipment and Data Recovery Warranties.

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=5512
HP Monster® Digital PowerCenter™ 450 (English/Spanish)
• Exclusive Dual Mode™ auto-disconnect surge protection • 12 surge-protected AC outlets • 5000 Joule rating provides a very high level of protection • Low-loss, surge-protected coax connections protect incoming cable/satellite lines • Surge-protected phone connections protect modem/fax lines

3. you said
Subjective sales brochures only imply what is does - ie absorb or block surges. Complete nonsense when its hundreds of joules cannot absorb destructive surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules.

there is no implication involved at all they are saying they offer protection upto there offered number of joules they are never saying they offer beyond it no one would, but what it would appear what you are saying is they are complete rubbish EVEN upto that said number therefore saying they do not work. we are talking about surges after all a local sub station switches on because electrical demand requires it where everyone goes off to turn the kettle on this therefore creates a surge on the electrical network.
after all these are surge protectors and not lighting surge protectors which are 2 completely different things!

4.you said
A plug-in protector has no earthing.

what absolute bull. the plugin protector has to have an earth under uk regulations because if an appliance, any appliance plugged in has an earth if that appliance shorts or goes wrong it must be able to reach ground and that will never change. so you need to check your facts on this first.

5.you said
Why do many protectors fail when an appliance does not?

rule 101 a plug in protector worst case sceranio is designed to if voltages are out of its spec range to die and not pass anymore electricty on. what if it carried on because loads are beyond it, it would cause a fire to protected appliances potentially.

6.you said
Well is does say 885 joules. That circuit means it uses 290 joules and never more than 590 joules for protection.

you splitting the circuit and saying it uses 290 joules is a figure in your head without any form for bench testing. also the unit is rated as a whole not 2 seperate bits as you would like to rate the wire, components and the busbars but how can you prove your rating is correct.

7.you said
How does that hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?

to comment again no one ever said it did go beyond the manufacturers specs you just assumed we all did!
they say the assumuntion is the mother of a f ups.

8.you said
So what happens to that surge? Does energy just magically disappear? Apparently.

A varistor is an electronic component with a significant nonlinear current–voltage characteristic. The name is a portmanteau of variable resistor. Varistors are often used to protect circuits against excessive transient voltages by incorporating them into the circuit in such a way that, when triggered, they will shunt the current created by the high voltage away from the sensitive components.A varistor is also known as Voltage Dependent Resistor or VDR. A varistor’s function is to conduct significantly increased current when voltage is excessive.

i would suggesting reading these articles it would improve you knowledge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
this would help even better info on ups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply

9.so lets see your answers for all of the above and at the end stating why a surge protector/ups does not work to the manufacturers listed specification as people have paid only for protection as listed.

when all of the above have been answered i shall respond thats if you have bothered to answer in numbered ordered please.

basil

Lil306

Westom

Just something quick.....I spotted something in some technical details described as "Transient surge capacity"

What is a sufficient level of protection here in Joules for a "whole house" protector, as I remember you making a post in an earlier reply that surges could be hundreds of thousands of Joules

westom

Basil1234 wrote: »

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=135041
The Gold Series offers top-level surge protection for your professional workstations, Home Cinema, DSS systems, Projection TVs, 2-line business phones, DSL/Cable modems, and more. This model boasts 3240 Joules, 90,000 Maximum Spike Amperage, 7-sockets and a lifetime £Unlimited Connected Equipment and Data Recovery Warranties.

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=5512
HP Monster® Digital PowerCenter™ 450 (English/Spanish)
• Exclusive Dual Mode™ auto-disconnect surge protection • 12 surge-protected AC outlets • 5000 Joule rating provides a very high level of protection • Low-loss, surge-protected coax connections protect incoming cable/satellite lines • Surge-protected phone connections protect modem/fax lines

Nothing in those specs claim any protection. For example, where does that current flow? What is the energy dissipated? 5000 joules will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules?

Another trick used in woefully insufficient specs is to all up all the various protector circuits and simple provide the big number - as if all those circuit work simultaneously. AC line surges only pass through 1/3rd and never more than 2/3rd of the circuits. Is the surge through that protector’s phone port, cable port, etc? Other circuits added to a total numbers and yet do nothing during the one surge.

All I read is lost of salesman fancy expressions. And where is the always required and dedicated connection to earth. There are no numbers that list protection from each type of surge. They do not even discuss each type of surge. If they did, you would discover it only claims to protect from a type of surge already made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or that surge current hunts for earth ground destructively via household appliances. Where does that protector claim to suck up that energy? Nowhere. As an IEEE brochure demonstrates, a protector adjacent to an appliance can even give that surge paths to earth destructively via the appliance - as we discovered when a plug-in protector simply earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers? Where does those specs discuss that type of surge - and protection from that surge in numbers?

You citation is sales brochures. And again. 1) No dedicated wire for that short connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss the always essential earthing. How does it make hundreds of thousand of joules irrelevant? How does it stop what three miles of sky could not? I see nothing that can answer any of those questions.

BTW, Monster Cable has a long history of getting into any industry where myths are so profitable. Monster also sold speaker cable with polarity. Reverse that wire between amp and speaker - and sound quality was diminished. Monster successfully sold their speaker wire for $70. If Monster is selling that product, then everyone doing same is heavily suspect. Monster even sells the same $25 Belkin protectors with fancier paint for up to $150 (until recently) even in Radio Shack.

Basil1234

as per usual you have answered nothing again if you claim to know it all why did you not bothering answering all the seperate bits.
from what i can see you are just the largest big head without actually proving beyond doubt that you are correct.
i used to have someone at school years agos like you, people just laughed at him.
so now sir i reserve that right for you as well because from what i can see is you are only correct. all the information given is obvousily wrong from manfacturers.
you have completey missed the point of this thread other than your own agenda and to prove how clever you are. we where talking about surge protectors not whole house protectors which where 2 different subjects.
i consider you a moron and an imbecille that actually has no real thought proccess or reasoning this isnt a personal attack btw it is my view of you and nothing will change that.

i hope you have made your point across now hopefully you will do us all a favour and kindly p off to another forum board and annoy some other people because this board can do with out your likes here. If i was a mod here i would simply ban you for trolling but i suspect you have been banned on a number of forum boards and are like a shark looking for new hunting ground all the time.

anyway you wont get any joy from me anymore i should like to think everyone will blank you here from now on in because really is no less than you are worthy of.

anyway said my bit now nice sometimes to get things of ones chest

timmmers

HTML200 wrote: »

Westom.

I'll take your final summary and work from the ground up.

"A protector is only as effective as what provides protection - its earth ground."

Logically:

We're talking about protecting an appliance beyond the mains point. That effectively means that some part of the circuit has to determine what is more power than the appliance can safely handle, and then dump the excess 'power' into the earth, rather than channeling it through the appliance.

That's what power surge protectors claim to do better than than appliances' own power supplies, and I think specifically they claim to be able to handle power spikes more effectively than appliances' own power supply units (PSU's). i.e., they react faster.

Specifically, what's your evidence against this claim?

Reading your summarised paragraph, I conclude that any surge protector that has a dedicated earth wire and whose manufacturer does not avoid discussion of the role of the earth wire is therefore not proved as as being a unit that, or being the manufacturer of a unit that, provides inadequate protection.

You're obviously a logical sort, so I'm sure you'll see the logical truth of my last paragraph.

I think one of the most likely sources of problems which surge protectors help with has been overlooked...the phone socket?

I've seen PC gear damaged by a TV card too...probably a lightning hit on the incoming TV wiring.

Aldi have a cheap one of these things for under a tenner next week or so..8 gang extension so handy to have anyway even if you don't think they work

t

westom

timmmers wrote: »

I think one of the most likely sources of problems which surge protectors help with has been overlooked...the phone socket?

Phone lines already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. It is even required by code. Previously posted was

a protector adjacent to an appliance can even give that surge paths to earth destructively via the appliance - as we discovered when a plug-in protector simply earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers?

Let's finish that discussion. Electricity means a current exist. Current into something without an outgoing path means no electricity - no surge. Incoming was a surge on AC electric. Destructively into a network of powered off computers. Outgoing to earth ground was via that other computers modem. Why? Phone lines already have an earthed 'whole house' protector.

Most phone appliances are damaged by surges incoming on AC mains. Then outgoing to earth ground via that telco installed 'whole house' protector. Why would an incoming surge on phone line seek earth ground through appliances by first ignoring an earthed 'whole house' protector? It will not. A surge on the phone line is earthed before it can enter a building.

Most frequent source of surge damage to a portable phone base station, answering machine, fax, or computer modem: incoming on AC mains. Outgoing to earth via phone line and that 'installed for free' phone line protector.

Same applies to TV. If a cable is properly connected to earth (as required by code), then TV cable is not an incoming source for surges. If AC electric does not have a properly earthed 'whole house' protector, then surge energy has been permitted inside the building. A surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Incoming on AC mains, destructively through a TV, then outgoing to earth via that properly earthed TV cable.

Surge protection is always about where energy dissipates. If a surge is permitted inside the building, it will hunt for earth destructively via appliances – with or without a plug-in protector.

cit_k

westom wrote: »

Phone lines already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. It is even required by code. Previously posted was Let's finish that discussion. Electricity means a current exist. Current into something without an outgoing path means no electricity - no surge. Incoming was a surge on AC electric. Destructively into a network of powered off computers. Outgoing to earth ground was via that other computers modem. Why? Phone lines already have an earthed 'whole house' protector.

Most phone appliances are damaged by surges incoming on AC mains. Then outgoing to earth ground via that telco installed 'whole house' protector. Why would an incoming surge on phone line seek earth ground through appliances by first ignoring an earthed 'whole house' protector? It will not. A surge on the phone line is earthed before it can enter a building.

Most frequent source of surge damage to a portable phone base station, answering machine, fax, or computer modem: incoming on AC mains. Outgoing to earth via phone line and that 'installed for free' phone line protector.

Same applies to TV. If a cable is properly connected to earth (as required by code), then TV cable is not an incoming source for surges. If AC electric does not have a properly earthed 'whole house' protector, then surge energy has been permitted inside the building. A surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Incoming on AC mains, destructively through a TV, then outgoing to earth via that properly earthed TV cable.

Surge protection is always about where energy dissipates. If a surge is permitted inside the building, it will hunt for earth destructively via appliances – with or without a plug-in protector.

Im guessing your not from the UK and know little about the UK setup?