Getting married when you already live together, have children and the rest anyway!

Bogof_Babe

Pee wrote: »

Rubbish!

Your prerogative of course. I wish you both luck and happiness.

Katie-Kat-Kins

Pee wrote: »

Rubbish!

Some women want to be married, some men want to be married and some men and women think that being married isn't relevant to them.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons for people feeling like this. Personally I am very secure in my relationship, know that I am with the right person for me and that I am the right person for him. I know that neither of us has been in such a good relationship before. As I said, I would marry him if it became important to him - he has asked but agrees with me that our relationship couldn't be improved by marriage.

Most people enter into marriage without any idea of the full implications anyway so it's hardly informed consent.

Just because your preference is for one way doesn't mean that other people don't have a genuine preference for an alternative.

Without wishing to get in to an arguement, (because of course it is entirely up to you how you live your life and your relationship and I have no interest in trying to change your mind) there is more to marriage than whether it may or may not improve your relationship.

Personally marriage hasn't really changed my relationship, we have known for sometime that we would spend the rest of our lives together and no magical transformation has occured since we got married. He still bugs me to tidy up and wash up and clean the house.........

But marriage has legal implications that are important to many irrespective of how they feel about the social, and moral implications of marriage. For example:
- Being your spouses next of kin, if you aren't married you are not next of kin and if he were to die or be critically ill then his parents or sibling would take all decisions. This has been a major factor for a few people I know.....
- Inheritence - ok so this can be got round by a will so that your partner isn't left high and dry by your death or vice versa but many people don't have wills and could find themselves homeless and/or penniless if their partner died.
- Tax - you get an inhertiance tax exemption for your spouse, I believe that that there are other tax advantages too.
- Parental responsibility - it astounds me that men aren't more concerned about that fact that if unmarried they have little or no automatic rights regarding their child
- Divorce - gets a bad press but it provides some protection to both parties upon the breakdown of a relationship which simply isn't available to unmarried couples and should ensure fair distribution of the assets.
- Entitlement to benefits - things like entitlement to pensions, and widows pension, payments under death in service etc.

Now I'm not saying that any of those things are necessarily a reason to marry but I do believe that many people don't fully understand how important that "bit of paper" known as a marriage certificate can be or the implications of being an unmarried couple. So many labour under the false apprehension that being a common law wife gives some protection when there is in fact none.

It is an individual choice for everyone but I couldn't live knowing that by my death my DH might be left at risk financially when I could protect him, he wouldn't want me to be thrown out of our home due to his death. I also wouldn't want his sister who he isn't particularly close with to have the final choice about whether his life support is turned off or not when I am the one that knows him best and lives with him day to day.

If people choose not to marry then that is fine but it should be an informed choice, where they know what rights and protections they are sacrificing.

divorcingjack

Hi Gwen,

I have been following your thread for ages as it i brings up issues similar to my own situation.

I have been with my partner/boyfriend/significant other (why isn't there a name for it incidentally?!) for 6 and a bit years, we have been living together for 6 years and bought a house 4 years ago. We are both 28, no kids.

Over the past 3 months or so, my desire for us to get married has come to a head. He is adamant that he does not want to get married for various reasons, and I am equally adamant that I do! His parents (and the majority of the huge family) are messily and nastily divorced, my parents are still together. We have been through counselling, had huge amount of tears, I've moved out, he's moved out, we both moved back in ....

When it came to it, I couldn't bear to lose him for this sole reason. We are so happy and it would be such a waste. My poor mum had a hysterical phonecall at 1am from me, so upset I couldn't do anything but howl down the phone.

We had a pregnancy scare a couple of weeks ago and his reaction to it told me everything I need to know. recently he said that he hasn't "decided" what to do (to marry or not), because he didn't know if he could live with me knowing that I was disappointed every day, and whether he should just marry me.

it took all my self-control to not scream "yes, that's exactly what you should do!!!". At the minute, I am concentrating on being the woman he deserves and accepting that it many not ever happen ... but I can't stop dreaming.

Sorry, this is an enormous post, and I didn't mean to hijack your thread! I just wanted to wish you all the best and I really really hope your baby steps work!

Anyway, keep us updated, your story gives me hope for the future..

dj x

ceridwen

KatP wrote: »

Without wishing to get in to an arguement, (because of course it is entirely up to you how you live your life and your relationship and I have no interest in trying to change your mind) there is more to marriage than whether it may or may not improve your relationship.

Personally marriage hasn't really changed my relationship, we have known for sometime that we would spend the rest of our lives together and no magical transformation has occured since we got married. He still bugs me to tidy up and wash up and clean the house.........

But marriage has legal implications that are important to many irrespective of how they feel about the social, and moral implications of marriage. For example:
- Being your spouses next of kin, if you aren't married you are not next of kin and if he were to die or be critically ill then his parents or sibling would take all decisions. This has been a major factor for a few people I know.....
- Inheritence - ok so this can be got round by a will so that your partner isn't left high and dry by your death or vice versa but many people don't have wills and could find themselves homeless and/or penniless if their partner died.
- Tax - you get an inhertiance tax exemption for your spouse, I believe that that there are other tax advantages too.
- Parental responsibility - it astounds me that men aren't more concerned about that fact that if unmarried they have little or no automatic rights regarding their child
- Divorce - gets a bad press but it provides some protection to both parties upon the breakdown of a relationship which simply isn't available to unmarried couples and should ensure fair distribution of the assets.
- Entitlement to benefits - things like entitlement to pensions, and widows pension, payments under death in service etc.

Now I'm not saying that any of those things are necessarily a reason to marry but I do believe that many people don't fully understand how important that "bit of paper" known as a marriage certificate can be or the implications of being an unmarried couple. So many labour under the false apprehension that being a common law wife gives some protection when there is in fact none.

It is an individual choice for everyone but I couldn't live knowing that by my death my DH might be left at risk financially when I could protect him, he wouldn't want me to be thrown out of our home due to his death. I also wouldn't want his sister who he isn't particularly close with to have the final choice about whether his life support is turned off or not when I am the one that knows him best and lives with him day to day.

If people choose not to marry then that is fine but it should be an informed choice, where they know what rights and protections they are sacrificing.

Quite...on the one hand I can quite see that a wedding ceremony is just a "bit of paper" - ie you either are or arent a "couple" and a "bit of paper" makes no difference whatsoever to that fact. However - there are emotional aspects to this for some people (of either sex) on the one hand - and there is the "officialdom" aspect on the other hand (as in the way I pointed out the other day that the "world as a whole" has absolutely no way of knowing whether two people living together ARE "husband and wife" (but without courtesy of the marriage certificate) or two flatmates who share a bed. In the absence of proof to the contrary - the "World as a whole" has no choice but to assume that they are just flatmates with sex thrown in. One simply cant "take the word" for it of one of the couple - as the other one may have a different view of things.

Katie-Kat-Kins

ceridwen wrote: »

Quite...on the one hand I can quite see that a wedding ceremony is just a "bit of paper" - ie you either are or arent a "couple" and a "bit of paper" makes no difference whatsoever to that fact. However - there are emotional aspects to this for some people (of either sex) on the one hand - and there is the "officialdom" aspect on the other hand (as in the way I pointed out the other day that the "world as a whole" has absolutely no way of knowing whether two people living together ARE "husband and wife" (but without courtesy of the marriage certificate) or two flatmates who share a bed. In the absence of proof to the contrary - the "World as a whole" has no choice but to assume that they are just flatmates with sex thrown in. One simply cant "take the word" for it of one of the couple - as the other one may have a different view of things.

Yes, I think you have touched on two things, the first is that the ceremony really is secondary, but people get more hung up on the wedding than the marriage. A lot of negative comments centre on the wedding celebration rather than the concept of marriage.

It is necessary for there to be some sort of recognition for partners so that they can show that they want to be a family together or whether they are just living together whether or not they are having sex.

At present marriage and civil partnership is the only way to do this, there is no such thing as a common law spouse. Either you are treated just as people who share a house or you get married.

There are ways round this, in france you can have a legal agreement to be treated for legal purposes as a couple without actually getting married and the same in Japan (where it is just a form, you don't have to attend together). It has been suggested that some sort of half way house would have been an option over here. There was an ideal opportunity to consider this when civil partnerships were introduced but it wasn't taken up.

The difficulty is that many people who choose not to get married would not go to the trouble of filling in a few forms to get equivalent legal recognition either. This would still leave people unprotected that have been living together for years possibly under the mistaken belief that they are part of a common law marriage and have some rights.

The alternative would be to give some sort of automatic protection to couples who have lived together for longer than a certain time. But this would also lead to injustice. What if the time was five years and you split up or your partner died after 4 years and 11 months, you would be unprotected as if you had only just met and moved in. What if you lived with someone and actively didn't want those sort of rights? Could you opt out? What if you didn't know you had to? What about couples who for practical reasons never live together full time but have integrated finances etc.......

I don't know what the answer is and what ever system there is there are bound to be injustices, I just think that we owe it to society to make sure people are educated about their rights. People need to know what marriage means practically rather than romantically and what choosing not to marry means. Perhaps it could be included in PSHE at school......

It is important though that people don't have to suffer heartbreak, financial hardship or homelessness due to ignorance about marriage, and also that the courts aren't clogged up trying to detangle the affairs of co-habiting couples who have split up or died without adequate provision being made.

flowerscotland

Op your situation sounds exactly like mine was, the way your OH is with you and avoiding the whole marriage issue.

My first daughter was unplanned and I hated the fact I had a different surname from her and her Dad, I was only 21 when I had her, but if my ex had asked me to get married I would have. When I fell pregnant with my second daughter this feeling increased, and I hated having a different surname from all three of them when she was born. I would have ran away and got married in a registry office and been happy with that.

When I spoke about marriage he would dismiss it, laugh, say we were too young, and anything to avoid the subject.

He got a bit of money and grudgingly bought me a ring 2 years ago, no proposal nothing, just gave me the ring, never talked about setting a date or anything, I think he just wanted me to wear the ring so people knew I was his property. Anyway to cut a long story short we ended up setting a date, I booked and planned and paid for most of it. He wanted a 'wedding' I didn't really, but he talked me into it. It should have been this Friday, he left me in November last year. Total shock. After 12 years of being together. I just think he couldn't take the responsibility of the family scene anymore. He has been out and about acting like a young guy getting drunk with his mates, and really not having a care in the world about our daughters.

Anyway I just wanted to share my story with you, I thought marriage would have completed us, made our family complete, people would take us more seriously because we were doing things properly. But life doesn't always turn out the way you plan.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do :A

gorgeous_gwen

KatP wrote: »

Without wishing to get in to an arguement, (because of course it is entirely up to you how you live your life and your relationship and I have no interest in trying to change your mind) there is more to marriage than whether it may or may not improve your relationship.

Personally marriage hasn't really changed my relationship, we have known for sometime that we would spend the rest of our lives together and no magical transformation has occured since we got married. He still bugs me to tidy up and wash up and clean the house.........

But marriage has legal implications that are important to many irrespective of how they feel about the social, and moral implications of marriage. For example:
- Being your spouses next of kin, if you aren't married you are not next of kin and if he were to die or be critically ill then his parents or sibling would take all decisions. This has been a major factor for a few people I know.....
- Inheritence - ok so this can be got round by a will so that your partner isn't left high and dry by your death or vice versa but many people don't have wills and could find themselves homeless and/or penniless if their partner died.
- Tax - you get an inhertiance tax exemption for your spouse, I believe that that there are other tax advantages too.
- Parental responsibility - it astounds me that men aren't more concerned about that fact that if unmarried they have little or no automatic rights regarding their child
- Divorce - gets a bad press but it provides some protection to both parties upon the breakdown of a relationship which simply isn't available to unmarried couples and should ensure fair distribution of the assets.
- Entitlement to benefits - things like entitlement to pensions, and widows pension, payments under death in service etc.

Now I'm not saying that any of those things are necessarily a reason to marry but I do believe that many people don't fully understand how important that "bit of paper" known as a marriage certificate can be or the implications of being an unmarried couple. So many labour under the false apprehension that being a common law wife gives some protection when there is in fact none.

It is an individual choice for everyone but I couldn't live knowing that by my death my DH might be left at risk financially when I could protect him, he wouldn't want me to be thrown out of our home due to his death. I also wouldn't want his sister who he isn't particularly close with to have the final choice about whether his life support is turned off or not when I am the one that knows him best and lives with him day to day.

If people choose not to marry then that is fine but it should be an informed choice, where they know what rights and protections they are sacrificing.

Just has to add, the bit I have highlighted, this is actually only really true for unmarried dads who are fathers of kids born before Dec 2003. Unmarried fathers of kids born after this who have parental responsibility (mainly through being named on the birth certificate for which they have to be present when registering the birth) have a whole lot of rights similar to the mother, obviously to give some semblance of equality between the parents, but I wonder if this may be some factor now in what we're discussing, I don't know

The other things you have mentioned are very interesting and relevant, and I think a lot of the financial aspects do come from women being the ones who have traditionally either stopped work after having children or cut down to part-time, thus losing their own financial earning capacity for a while.

gorgeous_gwen

divorcingjack wrote: »

Hi Gwen,

I have been following your thread for ages as it i brings up issues similar to my own situation.

I have been with my partner/boyfriend/significant other (why isn't there a name for it incidentally?!) for 6 and a bit years, we have been living together for 6 years and bought a house 4 years ago. We are both 28, no kids.

Over the past 3 months or so, my desire for us to get married has come to a head. He is adamant that he does not want to get married for various reasons, and I am equally adamant that I do! His parents (and the majority of the huge family) are messily and nastily divorced, my parents are still together. We have been through counselling, had huge amount of tears, I've moved out, he's moved out, we both moved back in ....

When it came to it, I couldn't bear to lose him for this sole reason. We are so happy and it would be such a waste. My poor mum had a hysterical phonecall at 1am from me, so upset I couldn't do anything but howl down the phone.

We had a pregnancy scare a couple of weeks ago and his reaction to it told me everything I need to know. recently he said that he hasn't "decided" what to do (to marry or not), because he didn't know if he could live with me knowing that I was disappointed every day, and whether he should just marry me.

it took all my self-control to not scream "yes, that's exactly what you should do!!!". At the minute, I am concentrating on being the woman he deserves and accepting that it many not ever happen ... but I can't stop dreaming.

Sorry, this is an enormous post, and I didn't mean to hijack your thread! I just wanted to wish you all the best and I really really hope your baby steps work!

Anyway, keep us updated, your story gives me hope for the future..

dj x

God that's so hard! My first inclination would be to say how much is the relationship worth keeping if he's sure he never wants to get married? But then how much do you think you'd be compromising yourself if you stayed knowing he'd never marry you? Having said that, for him to say he hasn't "decided" does imply some sort of thought towards marriage for him, be that because it's what he wants or because he knows it's what you want.

I know some women have posted on here saying they got married because although marriage wasn't important to the man, it was to the woman and so their partners got wed because they knew it would make the woman happy. I think that's kind of noble.

Bogof_Babe

Hi Gwen, good to see you are now in the position of advisor not advisee on this thread! Btw I think you need to add a second line to your signature .

Flower your story is heartbreaking. I think you are a very strong woman to cope with what you have been through, and I hope that gives you encouragement to believe in yourself, and that you will get your heart's desire eventually.

flowerscotland

Bogof_Babe wrote: »

Flower your story is heartbreaking. I think you are a very strong woman to cope with what you have been through, and I hope that gives you encouragement to believe in yourself, and that you will get your heart's desire eventually.

Thank you so much

I am coping well, and I am believing in myself more and more each day, and I do believe everything happens for a reason.

I just wanted to post and say thank you :A