Anyone sent their dog off to training camp??

foreign_correspondent

poor lad, I bet he is fed up, he does need to be comfortable before you can really start on his behaviour, as it will really affect it, especially when something we are so instinctively protective of as our eyes are painful, and perhaps blurry!

Mojisola

marshallka wrote: »

Also we have a little lhasa and I think he may have something to do with our big dogs problems. The Lhasa is top dog and although he was joining the training he has now got fed up and just ups and goes back to his basket now if I am asking them to sit in the porch before they go out. Its like he says "I am too old for all this now" - he is 12...so we are allowing one behaviour from one dog (top dog) and then trying to train the other.

This won't be helping. You're trying to be a leader to your dog but he knows that your Lhasa is his true leader because the Lhasa can choose whether to obey you or not.

marshallka

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

poor lad, I bet he is fed up, he does need to be comfortable before you can really start on his behaviour, as it will really affect it, especially when something we are so instinctively protective of as our eyes are painful, and perhaps blurry!

I know that. I am at a loss now as they WERE healing and he was actually looking much better.

I have had a thought about nettles. He actually tramples all over them and walks through nose down. Also on my usual route there are a few houses with really lovely pieces of grass outside which are beyond their boundaries of walls/ hedges etc and I bet they get fed up of dogs walking on the grass. Mine is pulled away but occassionally steps on and I have thought that maybe he has chemical burns. I know I am clutching at straws now but SOMETHING is setting these off again. I last thought it was the flourescian dye but its proved it was not that as they did not use it this time and now he is worse than ever. He is walking with is eyes like slits and will open them for a treat and when he thinks something is happening but then closes them again quick. I want to walk him today but its so windy and I don't know if I am doing more harm than good.. He will wag for me and still goes for his ball etc but I don't know what to do for the best. Roll on Monday.

puddy

good luck, and although i know it sounds cliched, there are lots of positives, he clearly has a good relationship with you and your family, you had identified the issue with your other dog, the two of them really need to be on an equal level below you, even if one of them is above the other.

i really cant see that anyone can judge him as being agressive whilst these helath problems are still up in the air, what animal wouldnt be irritable and growly when ill, even humans are.

have you looked up any information about homeopathic medication, either for calming or for his eyes. years ago, my cat started puling her fur out, a month on homeopathic tabs from holldand and barratt and she stopped completely

marshallka

jenner wrote: »

good luck, and although i know it sounds cliched, there are lots of positives, he clearly has a good relationship with you and your family, you had identified the issue with your other dog, the two of them really need to be on an equal level below you, even if one of them is above the other.

i really cant see that anyone can judge him as being agressive whilst these helath problems are still up in the air, what animal wouldnt be irritable and growly when ill, even humans are.

have you looked up any information about homeopathic medication, either for calming or for his eyes. years ago, my cat started puling her fur out, a month on homeopathic tabs from holldand and barratt and she stopped completely

Thanks for that Jenner. We tried the calm me downs for the last before visit and they did not make a difference and he has taken them for some days before also.

I have spent 1.5 hours locked in the kitchen with both dogs today and after watching Caesar Milan people training for dogs.(don't worry I did not use his methods:eek:) but I did listen to how he thinks a dog thinks http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361385827312960989 I have actually taught my dog to lie down at command (ish) i have to command about 10 times but he just walks around me with tail up at first and then eventually he holds it half between his legs and submits. Its a start as i have never been able to do this and then afterwards I did take him for his walk and made him do it during the walk. It was probably the best walk ever as he was very calm really. I decided to use a bit different approach and also train the little one as well where he could not run away. He looked disgusted at me - lol - but at least he did things. His eyes are still looking poorly and runny but he was a different dog on the lead.

foreign_correspondent

marshallka wrote: »

I have actually taught my dog to lie down at command (ish) i have to command about 10 times but he just walks around me with tail up at first and then eventually he holds it half between his legs and submits. Its a start as i have never been able to do this and then afterwards I did take him for his walk and made him do it during the walk. It was probably the best walk ever as he was very calm really. I decided to use a bit different approach and also train the little one as well where he could not run away. He looked disgusted at me - lol - but at least he did things. His eyes are still looking poorly and runny but he was a different dog on the lead.

hey, that's cool - it could be because it has occupied his busy collie mind for an hour and as a result he was more relaxed on his walk! Collies need to 'work' to be happy.

puddy

just before we put ours in the training camp 2 weeks ago, i got my partner to stop looking at the dog. my partner and the dog have this behaviour together almost like they are star struck lovers, they spend ages gazing into each others eyes, i thought that most dogs thought that it was a threat to be looked into the eyes but ours seems to look adoringly at my partner and my partner looks adoringly back at him. i felt that it gave the dog too much power, like he was on an equal footing with my partner so just before we put him in the training camp, i told him to stop looking at the dog all the time. i felt that it did help somewhat to teach the dog that he is just a dog, not our friend and i plan to continue this after he comes out. i wondered if looking at the dog too much in his eyes, somehow gave a message to the dog that something was expected of him, so when trying to take the power or control it might have made him agressive to other dogs in a bid to try and 'protect' us,,,, dont know really but i dont think its healthy for him to be on the same level as my partner and the loving looks seemed to me to make him think that he was.

MrsTinks

Poor lad - sorry to hear his eyes are not improving
I don't suppose you could change where you walk him for a week? Just to see if there IS an environmental factor anywhere? I'd think you're more likely to find it's hayfever (they can develop this at any point in life - even this late...) or an allergy than chemicals used by someone...
If you and the vet think it could be a reaction to something then my first point of call would be things you use at home - washing powder, cleaning things, floor disinfectants etc or even dust... (not saying your home is dusty however I have an allergy towards old house dust myself so I know how annoying it can be and my house doesn't have to be "dusty" for me to notice it )
Personally I like Cesar but I think from your perspective the best thing you can do is look at how philisophy and not his training methods - I don't want to sound patronising but I don't think you're at a point of being able to analyse your dog or your state of mind enough to try his methods
However you seem to have already sussed that so carry on Being calm and in control is the first step and mental stimulation is just as important to a collie as running round like a nutter in the field for an hour

puddy

ok, so we have picked our dog up from the trainer at a local park and had our first lesson, we have 3 more.

our dog, did not lunge at any dogs today. he has been with the trainers gun dogs, about 5 of them for the last 2 weeks, but there were also about another 5 dogs, some quite uncontrolled and rowdy at the class and he didnt lunge at them. he seemed to know how to interact with them. so we observed for about 10 minutes as directed and then came over to join the class.
whilst we were observing, our dog was walking to heel with the trainer, he was doing a down stay, just about, not as controlled as the other dogs clearly and to a large degree our dog had learned that a flick of the lead (police lead) meant that he was doing something wrong. i suppose it did make me a bit nervy to see that our dog was submissive and wary of when he did something wrong but equally he didnt seem scared of the trainer.

so we then joined the group and were taught how to hold the police lead and to walk him to heel. only 2 commands for this bit, either heel or dogs name. heel means walk to heel, dogs name is to get his attention. when he is pulling, looking away, fixated on something else other than you, you flick the lead, say NO and turn to the right all at the same time so that the dog knows it was wrong, you take the stimulus away and then after you give gentle praise (not overly lavish) and say the dogs name.

we were taught that all commands, training etc, need to be done very calmly to lower the excitement levels, including the praise, this is why the praise is very low key, just a gentle stroke on the ear and quietly saying his name so that the emotions or excitments are kept low, his mood is low and calm (because he is on the lead). he said this is even more important because its a collie and they are naturally nervy, excitable and dominant.

so, next thing was weaving in and out of the other dogs doing a down stay, no reaction at all from our dog, amazing, even when he was lunged at by another dog. main problem from my point of view is my partner, he encorages the dog to jump up on greeting by bending over and cuddling, then we started bickering together in front of the dog (and the other owners!!). the dog should not jump up, it raises the excitement levels, gets the dog on another level emotionally and means you are not in control, so NO, flick of the lead, walk away from the person he is jumping up to.

next thing, was to put him on the training lead. the police lead fixes to different points on this great big long lead, the command is 'away you go' and then he knows that this is free time, during this time he is allowed to run, jump, mess about, run towards other dogs because he is not on the lead and walking to heel. as you move around with the dog, you move the police lead further and further down the training lead so that the dog has a great big long amount of leeway. during this time he did not lunge at the dogs we walked past.

next thing was when all of the owners and dogs had freetime to let the dogs with their training leads run off. the dogs are allowed to go mental now because they are all playing together. our dog was sort of playing with the dogs, getting excited, barking, not agressive, getting involved in the rough and tumble with the other dogs, BUT responded to NO when called.

so the lesson was a good hour and a half, we were then left with our dog and his normal lead. so we did a bit of walking to heel to replicate what we had learned. again bickering broke out because my partner (as i knew he would) started to argue about what he has been told 'oh, we dont need to tell him every time he looks away, oh we dont need to have heel and his name to get his attention'

so he is trying to change what the dog has learned over the past 2 weeks and risks undoing all the good work, i get so annoyed with him.

then the real tester. we went to get his tug toy from the car. then let him off the lead. he is playing fetch when he spots a great big lab bounding over to a ball. he goes to chase the dog and instinctively me and my partner get anxious and he starts calling the dog. our dog actually obeyed and came back. however, my worry is that by callin our dog away from running to dogs whilst he is off the lead, gives him a message that 'other dogs' are something to worry about, be nervous, be aggressive about.
so we had another bicker about this. then he went running to the lab again but he was very well behaved, just did the doggy thing, sniff sniff, looked at each other and came back.

so i am going to put a list of the commands and rules on the fridge door

marshallka

jenner wrote: »

ok, so we have picked our dog up from the trainer at a local park and had our first lesson, we have 3 more.

our dog, did not lunge at any dogs today. he has been with the trainers gun dogs, about 5 of them for the last 2 weeks, but there were also about another 5 dogs, some quite uncontrolled and rowdy at the class and he didnt lunge at them. he seemed to know how to interact with them. so we observed for about 10 minutes as directed and then came over to join the class.
whilst we were observing, our dog was walking to heel with the trainer, he was doing a down stay, just about, not as controlled as the other dogs clearly and to a large degree our dog had learned that a flick of the lead (police lead) meant that he was doing something wrong. i suppose it did make me a bit nervy to see that our dog was submissive and wary of when he did something wrong but equally he didnt seem scared of the trainer.

so we then joined the group and were taught how to hold the police lead and to walk him to heel. only 2 commands for this bit, either heel or dogs name. heel means walk to heel, dogs name is to get his attention. when he is pulling, looking away, fixated on something else other than you, you flick the lead, say NO and turn to the right all at the same time so that the dog knows it was wrong, you take the stimulus away and then after you give gentle praise (not overly lavish) and say the dogs name.

we were taught that all commands, training etc, need to be done very calmly to lower the excitement levels, including the praise, this is why the praise is very low key, just a gentle stroke on the ear and quietly saying his name so that the emotions or excitments are kept low, his mood is low and calm (because he is on the lead). he said this is even more important because its a collie and they are naturally nervy, excitable and dominant.

so, next thing was weaving in and out of the other dogs doing a down stay, no reaction at all from our dog, amazing, even when he was lunged at by another dog. main problem from my point of view is my partner, he encorages the dog to jump up on greeting by bending over and cuddling, then we started bickering together in front of the dog (and the other owners!!). the dog should not jump up, it raises the excitement levels, gets the dog on another level emotionally and means you are not in control, so NO, flick of the lead, walk away from the person he is jumping up to.

next thing, was to put him on the training lead. the police lead fixes to different points on this great big long lead, the command is 'away you go' and then he knows that this is free time, during this time he is allowed to run, jump, mess about, run towards other dogs because he is not on the lead and walking to heel. as you move around with the dog, you move the police lead further and further down the training lead so that the dog has a great big long amount of leeway. during this time he did not lunge at the dogs we walked past.

next thing was when all of the owners and dogs had freetime to let the dogs with their training leads run off. the dogs are allowed to go mental now because they are all playing together. our dog was sort of playing with the dogs, getting excited, barking, not agressive, getting involved in the rough and tumble with the other dogs, BUT responded to NO when called.

so the lesson was a good hour and a half, we were then left with our dog and his normal lead. so we did a bit of walking to heel to replicate what we had learned. again bickering broke out because my partner (as i knew he would) started to argue about what he has been told 'oh, we dont need to tell him every time he looks away, oh we dont need to have heel and his name to get his attention'

so he is trying to change what the dog has learned over the past 2 weeks and risks undoing all the good work, i get so annoyed with him.

then the real tester. we went to get his tug toy from the car. then let him off the lead. he is playing fetch when he spots a great big lab bounding over to a ball. he goes to chase the dog and instinctively me and my partner get anxious and he starts calling the dog. our dog actually obeyed and came back. however, my worry is that by callin our dog away from running to dogs whilst he is off the lead, gives him a message that 'other dogs' are something to worry about, be nervous, be aggressive about.
so we had another bicker about this. then he went running to the lab again but he was very well behaved, just did the doggy thing, sniff sniff, looked at each other and came back.

so i am going to put a list of the commands and rules on the fridge door

Jenner this all sound amazing for you. I agree that the rules have to consistent for this to carry on working though. I have to train my family up with our dog too. I don't want him pulling me over as I am only about 8 stone but of course a little pulling to men is different. I am glad you have your dog back and can let him go and agree with the shouting him back bit that he may think its something to actually be alarmed at too. This is one of my problems to overcome. ALthough my dog will come back to me and always has done I have never left him only a couple of weeks ago and it was a bad experience too. Three dogs who were all together (who the owners said were friendly) came at him and then a slight fight broke out and my dog ran to me after my calling him and they all came to me also and would not be called back to their owners. A position like this could mean my legs get a nipping...:eek:. But if we see other dogs in the street he completely ignores most of them (as long as they on the other side of the street) and if not I cross anyway:o. He ignores dogs behind their own gates that are going wild at him too. He does not even look and actually walks a little quicker. I came across one face to face yesterday in its own drive and there was no growling but he did pull like crazy. I just do not really know what he is like so cannot call him aggressive or not aggressive. . I have been leaving the muzzle on him now for about a minute and he just gets into a lay down position and sulks and then scratches like crazy to get it off. Tomorrow I have to go the vets with him though and I know he will be different there. I just hope its over and done with quick. I am going to definately have someone out to him though as I need the confidence to let him off and mix with other dogs too and not be called back. I also need to know what is a proper fight and what is not as sometimes I perhaps perceive playing as fighting too.

Please keep us posted about how this continues and then you can say if this was worth the money too. Its so expensive having them trained etc but sometimes its not about the money. Its about having piece of mind when you are out and that is worth all the money in the world.

I am now considering neutering our dog too. I know he is old but he shows all the signs of being dominant (with me too) and I think it would perhaps give me more confidence off the lead too. They say that when neutered they do not fight so much with other males. We have two males in our house and when they do fight it can get nasty although they both seem to make up fast too.

Dogs live for the moment.

Just been showing my hubby the walk walk stay. I walk up the drive with mine at the side of me (no lead) and he walks no problem and then I keeping saying walk, walk, and then I say STAY and he stands like a statue. Its comical as he can sometimes have one foot ready to go down but stays in that position lol. Just wish he would be the same in the street sometimes.