Anyone sent their dog off to training camp??

foreign_correspondent

Before you choose a trainer or behaviouralist, I would talk to a few people and see who you feel happiest with before you start, who you will find easy to work with, who is kind to the dog, and who you can afford - your dog sounds nervy, excitable and highly strung to me (not unusual for a collie), which if course can lead to growling and maybe even snapping when backed into a corner. I do not think this means he is a bad dog, and as you trust him at home and have had him for eight years, trust in your experiences of him.

A dog that growls when uncomfortable worries me less than one who does not warn and just snaps, and my dog, (who is 100% laid back) growled when she had belly ache and the vet squished her stomach... and she loves going to the vet - your dog is already in a state by the time he gets in to be examined, poor lad.

marshallka

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

Before you choose a trainer or behaviouralist, I would talk to a few people and see who you feel happiest with before you start, who you will find easy to work with, who is kind to the dog, and who you can afford - your dog sounds nervy, excitable and highly strung to me (not unusual for a collie), which if course can lead to growling and maybe even snapping when backed into a corner. I do not think this means he is a bad dog, and as you trust him at home and have had him for eight years, trust in your experiences of him.

A dog that growls when uncomfortable worries me less than one who does not warn and just snaps, and my dog, (who is 100% laid back) growled when she had belly ache and the vet squished her stomach... and she loves going to the vet - your dog is already in a state by the time he gets in to be examined, poor lad.

Thanks for your kind words foreign correspondence. I need someone that will play with him first and get to know him. His eye has closed again tonight since they have put floursecent dye in again and he is rubbing it. I think he is in pain and needs more than the tabs we have been given. I am at my wits end. I love him to death and we all do but he does not like strangers very much. I feel so much at a loss here. I want to help him and care for him and feel so guilty for him being like this. It would be like winning the lottery to me to get him to be seen without all this. The yelping on the lead,pulling etc is nothing compared to this but I suppose it all goes hand in hand. What do you do when your dog is aggressive at the vet, its the worst thing out... I NEED some help and fast.

As regards who we can afford we could not afford anything really but I would get into debt for this one. Its not like a holiday or a fancy item of clothing etc. Its a life and someone we all love. I want him so much. I love him so much and the thought of losing him breaks my heart. I am crying now typing this as he is the most loved and wanted dog on the earth to me. He's part of my life. God this is cracking me up.

foreign_correspondent

ease up on yourself - some dogs hate the vets, its not unusual, many dogs get scared, and its not surprising - it smells funny to us, and just think what all those odd doggy smells must tell your dog. In addition, some vets are undoubtedly better with dogs than others - My vet is lovely, but when I went with my mum to get hers speyed (collie x lurcher), I was really surprised that the vet 'leapt' at the dog without introducing himself to us or the dog first, and the dog was clearly just as surprised because she jumped back and looked really scared!

I think she thought we were being apprehended by some strange chap, and was not at all comfortable - she apparently was not keen when they tried to anaethatise her either, and ended up muzzled, which was a surprise to me because she is a daft clown of a dog!

I dont think you need to get into debt, or to sell your soul, and do not rush into anything, talk to at least three people before you set anyone on, and ask to see if you can do a trial session first to see how you find them.

Why do you think you might lose him - if he cn be muzzled at the vets and can be treated what is the worry? (I know its far less than ideal, but I don't understand the fear of losing him over this?)

marshallka

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

ease up on yourself - some dogs hate the vets, its not unusual, many dogs get scared, and its not surprising - it smells funny to us, and just think what all those odd doggy smells must tell your dog. In addition, some vets are undoubtedly better with dogs than others - My vet is lovely, but when I went with my mum to get hers speyed (collie x lurcher), I was really surprised that the vet 'leapt' at the dog without introducing himself to us or the dog first, and the dog was clearly just as surprised because she jumped back and looked really scared!

I think she thought we were being apprehended by some strange chap, and was not at all comfortable - she apparently was not keen when they tried to anaethatise her either, and ended up muzzled, which was a surprise to me because she is a daft clown of a dog!

I dont think you need to get into debt, or to sell your soul, and do not rush into anything, talk to at least three people before you set anyone on, and ask to see if you can do a trial session first to see how you find them.

Why do you think you might lose him - if he cn be muzzled at the vets and can be treated what is the worry? (I know its far less than ideal, but I don't understand the fear of losing him over this?)

Because I asked her honest opinion of him and she said "aggressive". I told her he was not at home but he did "growl" occassionally but she said if nothing could be done with a behaviourable therapist then we could think about putting him down as he may bite someone and our child could be it. All dogs "may" bite someone I thought??? Our child is 13 near on and my other is 22 so they are not little kiddies and again I would not leave ANY dog with little kiddies.

Last time i went there I asked her if she had seen dogs like him and she said "loads" and now this. He did snarl though as well this time and he does growl as soon as he sees any of them. He is in pain though with his eyes and it must be annoying as eye contact with a dog is threatening anyway and she is having to get right up close when they are sore already. I agree about the muzzle thing and maybe its best if my son and hubby take him next time as I get too nervous myself and he picks up on that. I need to calm down and I do know that. I am such a crap dog owner really if the truth be known. I have treated him more like a child and not a dog and that is where the problem lies and I worry more about dogs coming at him cause I know he would defend himself. He is excellent running on the common off the lead and I only have to shout him and he is back sitting and waiting for his lead back on but again its only pointing out to him there could be danger. I have been over protective perhaps and made him like this. I need a trainer but last one we had at 18 months old did say he was hyper and to train him he would need calming anyway. It was just the saying about "if he could not be trained" he was actually aggressive in their eyes and the other option would be to put him down. I am going to muzzle train him at home before we go but I did not do this this week as his eyes are the problem and he try's to get the muzzle off himself by stratching the eyes. A vicious circle and I also read where muzzles can actually cause more aggression in dogs. It was on a border collie rescue site in america.
Thanks again. I am going to have a calming cuppa and get some more emails in tomorrow and phone calls. Thanks again and sorry to be nusiance on this forum. I used to help out on the PPI reclaiming one but money has been the last thing on my mind just of late.

foreign_correspondent

You are not a nusance, just a worried dog owner. Look, if you have had this dog eight years, then he has been on the scene since your youngest was five, I dont think he will start mauling him now, when he is a big smelly teenager! (no offence BTW!)

Do not panic, of course your dog is anxious and threatened at the vets - I have a confession to make...now, don't laugh, but I am terrified of the dentist, (irrational I know) and once, when I was a kid, I .... ahem.... bit the dentists hand when he tried to do something painful.:o

Luckily, he did not demand I was put to sleep, although he did suggest I went to a different dentist in future, which was fair enough! So, your dog has my sympathies, I know how he feels! (ok, you can laugh if you like, but only 'cos you need one right now!):rotfl:

Dont tell anyone though!!!

WolfSong2000

Muzzles can make dogs more aggressive, yeah, as the dog realises that it wont be able to defend itself properly if another dog comes for it, so it panics and actually gets worse. This was the cause with one of my dogs who was attacked and now attacks certain dogs out of fear. He was a shuddering wreck when we had to use a muzzle on him, so have resorted to specialized dog trainer instead. Big improvement, though not perfect . Fear can make dogs do stupid things, though...the dog I just mentioned actually attacked one of our other dogs (his father) because he saw one of the dogs he didn't like through our gate, and as he couldn't get to that dog, just went for our other one.

MrsTinks

marshallka wrote: »

Well been in tears for the last couple of hours as we visited the vets this evening and this time he was muzzled in a cage type muzzle and she did the drops and he was terrible with his teeth and growling. His eyes are healing as to yet but he has to go back again.

Anyway she got the vet in that has actually done dog psychology and she said she would get us to see a behaviour therapist but a vet trained one. I then asked the vet that treated him what she thought of his behaviour and she said it was definately aggression and that he was classed as an aggressive dog. She asked if he did this at home and he has never growled like that ever before. He has growled at home but never like that.. Anyway I then asked about what they could do and she then said that as we had a child (although our child is 13 and would never use the dog as a play toy anyway!!) it would be best to get this sorted out. SHe said what if he went for the child. He has never "gone" for anyone at all. He growls like any dog I would think when they have had their corneas hurt and then someone (a complete stranger) comes along to put stuff in their eyes and shine lights in them they would growl. I would say he was scared more than anything. She did mention putting him down too but no way would I do that. SHe said that sometimes this aggression cannot be solved. I don't see him as aggressive at all. He has never hurt any of us or anyone at all come to mention.

She told me that to have this vet therapist to have a look would be £100 to £200 as I said i wanted him/her to come to our house and see him here.

I have tried to email a long letter to the border collie rescue place and its come back as undelivered mail, I need help like yesterday. I have had a reply from Lynn Davis dog training but our vet says he needs a trained vet one.... any advice. He is NOT a bad dog at all. She does not recommend the training school thing either.

Sorry but the "vet trained one".... why??? seriously??? As far as I am concerned that is a load of rubbish. Lynne's assistant is very nice and so is Lynne. Stick with it chick!

MrsTinks

right longer reply now I've caught up

Firstly without seeing him obviously it's impossible to determine what KIND of aggression you're dealing with. It SOUNDS like fear based aggression but the only way to tell is to see him in action as it were. Many vets don't understand the dog psycology unfortunately, others on the other hand do. You get vets you and your dog get along with same as you might find a dentist or doctor you either click with or you don't so please don't take her words to heart. Personally I think maybe se has a point, but she delivered it very badly. Yes IF he was really aggressive then I would feel she was not doing her job if she didn't at least mention the possibility of PTS - however I don't think after a short consultation in an environment where he is KNOWN to be stressed is enough to make any kind of diagnosis on him like that.
Yes he may have behavioural problems, but you are willing to work on them. I'm glad you've given up on the "boot camp" idea
Now let's look forward on how you can best help him and you. Because I think a lot of this comes from you now anticipating his behaviour and so it turns into a catch 22...
However I stand by saying that you need a vet trained behaviourist being a bunch of nonsense I'm afraid Being vet trained doesn't guarantee you that you find one you are happy with or who gets on with your dog...
Deep breaths and remember you have managed for the last 8 odd years - don't give up on yourself now (because I know you won't give up on him )

marshallka

MrsTine wrote: »

right longer reply now I've caught up

Firstly without seeing him obviously it's impossible to determine what KIND of aggression you're dealing with. It SOUNDS like fear based aggression but the only way to tell is to see him in action as it were. Many vets don't understand the dog psycology unfortunately, others on the other hand do. You get vets you and your dog get along with same as you might find a dentist or doctor you either click with or you don't so please don't take her words to heart. Personally I think maybe se has a point, but she delivered it very badly. Yes IF he was really aggressive then I would feel she was not doing her job if she didn't at least mention the possibility of PTS - however I don't think after a short consultation in an environment where he is KNOWN to be stressed is enough to make any kind of diagnosis on him like that.
Yes he may have behavioural problems, but you are willing to work on them. I'm glad you've given up on the "boot camp" idea
Now let's look forward on how you can best help him and you. Because I think a lot of this comes from you now anticipating his behaviour and so it turns into a catch 22...
However I stand by saying that you need a vet trained behaviourist being a bunch of nonsense I'm afraid Being vet trained doesn't guarantee you that you find one you are happy with or who gets on with your dog...
Deep breaths and remember you have managed for the last 8 odd years - don't give up on yourself now (because I know you won't give up on him )

Again nothing but tears this morning and I just cannot stop crying. His eyes are closed again since the visit last night and they WERE getting better for definate. I have rang a trainer in ashbourne derby and they have told me of a vets some miles away who would certainly deal with this better. She was an older lady and sounded absolutely lovely and said that this would no doubt be out of pain and also fear. She has also said she would meet me at the vets if I liked and try to help. SHe will not start any sort of training at our home until his eyes are much better. The thing is it is catch 22, he needs to be treated and they cannot offer any sort of drug cause it would change the appearance of his eyes. I think the floursecent dye they use in it is irritating his eyes more than ever and he seems much worse after this. I know it should not but why was he (as I thought) better yesterday and then back to squinting and holding them shut today. I just hope this is a temporary thing. They did not charge me for the consultation last night and only the pills. I am not after free vet fees, I am after treatment and I realise that they find him difficult to treat but this lady who I spoke to today has said perhaps there is an alternative type of treatment instead of what they are doing now. I would love for it to be a permanent thing instead of this toing and froing. I will not give up on him. He is my baby boy and I am again crying now. He is not aggressive at all but I genuinly believe he is in pain and frightened too. I did not do the drops myself last night so I was not stroking him and talking to him cause my husband had him pinned and the vet did them but she did use a cage like muzzle and it was horrible to see him in that. I understand why but she did say about muzzle training him at home. Granted again I understand why but we have never had to have him treated other than quick jabs etc. I would try to muzzle him at home etc if it was not his eyes as when I put it on he stratches like mad and I don't want him to do any more damage. (catch 22 again). Also I know he picks up on my fear too and again that does not help.

Thanks for your concern and help.

MrsTinks

Ok - let's look at the treatment first (sorry i didn't realise it was so bad that it would also be nearly closing his eyes up - I realised it was painful for him, but not quite how serious it might be... my bad!)
Can you or your husband administer the drops yourself? My mums GSD wouldn't let anyone but me near her claws to clip them when she was still with us - not even mum (aka GOD) because mum was scared of catching the quick and Masha picked up on this fear... As she lived in Denmark and I lived here it meant if they got too long inbetween mum would have to drop her off at the vets to get her sedated to have the claws clipped (it actually worked out cheaper for me to fly home and do them! :eek:)
What I'm trying to say is that because I knew what I was doing with her claws I had no doubt I could do it and she let me... take the added comfort factor of him being at home to have the eye drops and you might find it a lot easier to treat him? If you are doing the drops yourself most of the time then ignore me
As for the other vet - would she be willing to look after your dog at your home?
I can't tell you why his eyes are worse today other than maybe the stress and what have you yesterday might have caused him to move his eyes around a lot more than usual and depending on what is wrong with his eyes if he was "wide eyed with fear" then he wasn't blinking as much as he should have been and his eyes might have dried out more than they would have - despite the drops.

The flouresent drops btw don't irritate - or shouldn't i've had them in my eyes loads of times as I wear contacts and went through a period of changing lenses and especially when I started wearing the ones you don't take out for 30 days - they do LOADS of eye health tests then to make sure you're not damaging your eyes! About every 2-4 weeks I had dye in my eyes and honest it didn't hurt or sting

Returning to the vet scenario (I jump about abit... blame pregnancy brain ) then would it maybe help if you weren't actually in the room with him? If he's feeding off your fear then it might work better if you aren't actually with him to reinforce this fear?

Just for my own curiousity - what is the problem with his eyes?