Anyone sent their dog off to training camp??

marshallka

MrsTine wrote: »

Ok - let's look at the treatment first (sorry i didn't realise it was so bad that it would also be nearly closing his eyes up - I realised it was painful for him, but not quite how serious it might be... my bad!)
Can you or your husband administer the drops yourself? My mums GSD wouldn't let anyone but me near her claws to clip them when she was still with us - not even mum (aka GOD) because mum was scared of catching the quick and Masha picked up on this fear... As she lived in Denmark and I lived here it meant if they got too long inbetween mum would have to drop her off at the vets to get her sedated to have the claws clipped (it actually worked out cheaper for me to fly home and do them! :eek:)
What I'm trying to say is that because I knew what I was doing with her claws I had no doubt I could do it and she let me... take the added comfort factor of him being at home to have the eye drops and you might find it a lot easier to treat him? If you are doing the drops yourself most of the time then ignore me
As for the other vet - would she be willing to look after your dog at your home?
I can't tell you why his eyes are worse today other than maybe the stress and what have you yesterday might have caused him to move his eyes around a lot more than usual and depending on what is wrong with his eyes if he was "wide eyed with fear" then he wasn't blinking as much as he should have been and his eyes might have dried out more than they would have - despite the drops.

The flouresent drops btw don't irritate - or shouldn't i've had them in my eyes loads of times as I wear contacts and went through a period of changing lenses and especially when I started wearing the ones you don't take out for 30 days - they do LOADS of eye health tests then to make sure you're not damaging your eyes! About every 2-4 weeks I had dye in my eyes and honest it didn't hurt or sting

Returning to the vet scenario (I jump about abit... blame pregnancy brain ) then would it maybe help if you weren't actually in the room with him? If he's feeding off your fear then it might work better if you aren't actually with him to reinforce this fear?

Just for my own curiousity - what is the problem with his eyes?

He has corneal ulcers from the grasses on the "common" and running about like a lunatic. They should have healed by now and he had an op on them last week too. I have decided to not go to the vets with him and let my hubby and son do it next time. I may try another one though that is some miles away but been recommended by a dog therapist from derby. We are in staffordshire so not too far away. This therapist has even said she would meet us there if that is any help. She will not start any work with him though yet as she says that he is in pain from these ulcers and strangers coming in doing this and that will not help. She said it was wrong to say that a dog is aggressive to that extent and that anyone would be hurting and would growl the same. He cannot have sedatives cause it would change the appearance of his eyes and each time we go she does the floursecent dye and then he is irritated again. I have rang and asked if it can irritate the eyes and she says it can't but they were getting better yesterday and then today he is rubbing them like crazy again. His collar he will not wear as he just goes beserk worse than ever stratching and shaking his head and running into anything. I have just walked him and he was great outside and opened his eyes but that is collies. They would cut their feet to bits and only start to limp when the work was done.

As regards me doing the dye thing I have done the times before but this time she did it herself.

I am just no good at this type of thing and realise that now. I can love him, walk him, feed him, play with him but as regards the control in the vets I cannot. I have told my vet of the vets that was recommended to me and she says that we could try. I then said that thislady that I spoke to did understand that aggression like that in a dog that is in pain already is sometimes quite common. I realise he needs some training etc and I cannot wait to start that but we need his eyes better first. This lady also said that she did dog psychology in new zealand and they have some very aggressive dogs there and that mine does not sound aggressive but fearful. She also said that another vet (being her vet in Derby) would most probably offer alternative treatment probably more radical to get this over and done with.

marshallka

Right, update....

We have rang our original doggie psychologist and she is coming out next tuesday but has told me to go back to basics and do all the things she said. I don't know why but this time lots of the things are actually working with him. I have also been loaned a dog whisperer book (not the one from america but Jan Fennell and have been introducing things from that for the last couple of days and he is much better on walks now. He sits and stays at pavement, he walks without the noise so much and if he makes it I take him back and leave him 5 mins.

Today I took him up the common and its where the dogs run free so to speak. I saw a lady with 3 off the lead dogs just as we got out the car. Her lot bigger than mine border collie came hounding over to the car and I shut the door as he was so forward. I then asked the ladies if their dogs were friendly and she said they were and that to try with mine. Mine was on a long lead at the time and got out the car and immediately was surrounded by these 3 dogs. Two small dogs and the larger border collie. He then gave a little growl and snapped a little (not nothing nasty but the bigger border was growling back) and then ran behind my legs for help. I asked the ladies to call their dogs and they did but they would not listen and mine was completely controlled then and walking towards me and my son. We then walked off with him on the extendable and he completely ignored them again. It was not a good start but at least I now know that this was most probably not the best method of socialising by meeting other dogs off their leads (and 3 at that) when mine is on his. He is great walking past them in the oposite side of the street and does not bark or growl and today I have walked alongside people directly next to us (not dogs) and he was great and even sits to let people past us. Its just the vets that he does not like.

I have also asked the postman to throw a treat to him today to stop him barking and he did. Another tiny little thing. Perhaps if our vet gave him a treat etc first he may be different. I am not going to go though as I may make him worse. All these little things are getting somewhere with him. I have walked now about 10 times since yesterday and he is just better and better with these commands. In fact my one just was a pleasure and I was smiling all the way. My only problem now is getting him to trust the vet again and socialising him properly by allowing him off when other dogs are also off their leads. I have always shouted him back to his lead (which he does no problem whatsoever) before. Why can't he just be like this in the vets. Perhaps they are also giving off the impression to him they are scared of him cause he growls. That would make him worse wouldn't it.

WolfSong2000

Glad to hear his behavior is improving . And you're right - if the vets are scared of him this can make a big difference as some animals will take advantage of it. Had it happen with two horses when I worked at a livery yard...the worst one you literally couldn't turn your back on when you went in to feed her because she'd go for you; had to give her a wide berth walking past her stall otherwise she'd try and bite, etc. I gave up at first, and for months left her feed outside for the yard owner to give to the mare, but eventually just got to the point where I said to myself "sod it". Walked up to the horse, without showing any fear and the horse was absolutely fine with it...from then on, I could do things with the horse that not even its owner could - she thought I'd drugged it at first as it was so relaxed around me.

Anyhow, random story but the bottom line is that animals really pick up on people's attitudes - especially fear, and even if your vets are wary of the dog, this could have a detrimental effect. Thing to look out for is body language - even when a dog growls, there's different kinds...at the really bad end of the scale, you get the "I am definitely a threat, I will attack you if you don't back off, etc" whereas at the other end you get the "I'm in a bad mood, leave me alone" and in between the "I don't want to hurt you but I'm scared/in pain/whatever and don't know how else to get you to leave me alone". Unfortunately, like tail wagging (which can also be a sign of aggression depending on how it's done) people don't pick up on it....I've really generalized things with the growling attitudes, but you get the idea...body language in every species (dogs included) has its subtleties, and it'd be worth trying to learn them

foreign_correspondent

Some animals can read people's emotions very well, when I was a zoo keeper we had a vulture, George, who cold tell if people were wary of him - he used to torment the poor, nervous work experience kids by running off with their possessions and guarding them in a corner, wings fanned out and glaring at them....

However, if he knew you weren't scared of him, you only had to go in and speak to him and he would move!

Also, someone locally had two big old rotweillers as guard dogs, and they used to run barking and snarling at any cars that came into his yard and scare people half to death - all except for my gran, aged about 85 at the time, who used to trot out of the car and go over to give them a fuss and a biscuit! Again, she had no fear and no worries about them and she just treat them as nice dogs - and they behaved as such for her! The chap who owned them was amazed, as to most people the were intimidating and noisy, but my five-foot-nothing, white haired gran would be getting them to sit for a biccie!

This therapist has even said she would meet us there if that is any help. She will not start any work with him though yet as she says that he is in pain from these ulcers and strangers coming in doing this and that will not help. She said it was wrong to say that a dog is aggressive to that extent and that anyone would be hurting and would growl the same.

but - I think this lady talks sense, you cannot really work on his behaviour till his pain subsides!

puddy

marshallka, how are you getting on?

marshallka

jenner wrote: »

marshallka, how are you getting on?

Hiya Jenner, so glad you have posted again. I wanted to know the same from you.

We are getting a little better with the walks but he has another vet visit tomorrow evening and I am not going. I think he finds it hard to be muzzled when i am there. I suppose its like taking away his defences and the fact that he feels "responsible" for me. I can get him to sit at kurbs etc now but shouting does not do it. I have to talk to him like I do here in his little boy voice and it works 10 times better. As regards the vets I do not know yet until tomorrow. I have muzzle trained him a bit too and I can get it on no problem here at home but to leave it on it means him scratching his face to bits and its his eyes that he is being treated for so its a hard task. I want them to heal but he is still having lots of trouble with his left eye. Its closed in the morning and seems to hurt with the light still. I would think that tomorrow they will decide about operating again. I don't really know.

I tried again the other day with letting him go to other dogs on our common and three dogs came bounding over, a bigger border collie and two border terriers and they was growling and snarling so I just called mine back and legged it (well walked veryyyy fast). I fear a fight so much but I really don't know how he would react. It looked very much like a fight was going to begin to me. SOmetimes though its other owners who cannot call their dogs back (I can with mine and that is one thing he is very obedient at) but then they are growling and snarling around my legs.:eek:

I have also spoken to alpha dogs who are trained in aggression and he have quoted me £930 for 3 visits. He is completely trained though and has certs etc but it does seem a lot. Today the gas man came to read the meter and instead of rushing him to the living room I opened the door with him there and he just pounced on him (sniffing where he should not:eek:) and then went calmly to the living room. ALso a man up the street asked if he could say hello to him and he got down to his level and gave him some cheese and he sat and gave him a paw. Perhaps its just me. I need to relax more.

Please let me know how yours is doing at boot camp. I am dying to find out.

MrsTinks

I think £930 is EXTREEMLY expensive myself... That might just be me though
Be persistent and calm - you're already seeing results so don't give up!
I think waiting and seeing how he is at the vets when you're not with him to give him any vibes will be a good indicator on how much of your anxiety he's picking up. Once his eyes are better then maybe try just some normal dog training classes to see if under controlled circumstances you can stay calm and he can refrain from wanting to eat all the other dogs
Look at the positives instead of the negatives - he's not going to change over night but he IS responding to your training which is great!

WolfSong2000

Seems as if a lot of your dog's anxiety is coming off you...as you said yourself, when you relax he behaves better, so I reckon it's a case on working on your behavior as much as your dogs .

And yeah, speaking to a dog in a reasonable voice when giving a command will work 100 times better than shouting at them. Only time I shout at dogs is if I catch them trying to steal something....otherwise, to tell them off I just lower my voice, as they know then that I mean business .

puddy

marshallka wrote: »

Hiya Jenner, so glad you have posted again. I wanted to know the same from you.

We are getting a little better with the walks but he has another vet visit tomorrow evening and I am not going. I think he finds it hard to be muzzled when i am there. I suppose its like taking away his defences and the fact that he feels "responsible" for me. I can get him to sit at kurbs etc now but shouting does not do it. I have to talk to him like I do here in his little boy voice and it works 10 times better. As regards the vets I do not know yet until tomorrow. I have muzzle trained him a bit too and I can get it on no problem here at home but to leave it on it means him scratching his face to bits and its his eyes that he is being treated for so its a hard task. I want them to heal but he is still having lots of trouble with his left eye. Its closed in the morning and seems to hurt with the light still. I would think that tomorrow they will decide about operating again. I don't really know.

I tried again the other day with letting him go to other dogs on our common and three dogs came bounding over, a bigger border collie and two border terriers and they was growling and snarling so I just called mine back and legged it (well walked veryyyy fast). I fear a fight so much but I really don't know how he would react. It looked very much like a fight was going to begin to me. SOmetimes though its other owners who cannot call their dogs back (I can with mine and that is one thing he is very obedient at) but then they are growling and snarling around my legs.:eek:

I have also spoken to alpha dogs who are trained in aggression and he have quoted me £930 for 3 visits. He is completely trained though and has certs etc but it does seem a lot. Today the gas man came to read the meter and instead of rushing him to the living room I opened the door with him there and he just pounced on him (sniffing where he should not:eek:) and then went calmly to the living room. ALso a man up the street asked if he could say hello to him and he got down to his level and gave him some cheese and he sat and gave him a paw. Perhaps its just me. I need to relax more.

Please let me know how yours is doing at boot camp. I am dying to find out.

so are we, we pick him up on sunday and have our first lesson, so far all we know is that he is mingling with the other dogs and responding to training!!

it sounds to me as if yours is going ok, its you and him that need confidence maybe rather than just training focused on agression?? 930 quid does seem quite a lot but i suppose it depends on whether you feel you reached the point where you are looking at last resorts sort of thing. are you able to see this bloke in work with another dog before committing?
do you know any dogs in the area who are not agressive and growly who you can get more confidence with.

marshallka

jenner wrote: »

so are we, we pick him up on sunday and have our first lesson, so far all we know is that he is mingling with the other dogs and responding to training!!

it sounds to me as if yours is going ok, its you and him that need confidence maybe rather than just training focused on agression?? 930 quid does seem quite a lot but i suppose it depends on whether you feel you reached the point where you are looking at last resorts sort of thing. are you able to see this bloke in work with another dog before committing?
do you know any dogs in the area who are not agressive and growly who you can get more confidence with.

Well next monday evening the dog psychologist who saw him at 18 months old is coming back but she is charging again. I want her to come to the common with me and see him with other dogs. She will know the different growls and tail stances etc. I have tried to learn things from the net about tails and growls but its not easy for me as I suffer bad anxiety myself. Its not something that I can just shake off like that and it is to do with other owners too. I ask them if they can recall and they say yes but when push comes to shove they cannot and that again sets me back. I realise its me as much as anything but he is very hyper and that has been confirmed and also he can be growly too. I have changed his food too to wainwrights as there are no "e" numbers and also the senior food as recommended by pets at home. They say that what I was feeding before was like giving a child with hyperactivity smarties.:eek:
Just have to wait to see what tomorrow brings. I will need sedation though when he goes.:o

They could not believe that I want to calm a near on 9 year old down.