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Camp_Freddy

barongreenback wrote: »

Seriously though, no Guide is above any other member and should treat members as they would like to be treated. Guides are doing a largely thankless task but it is a task that we volunteer for and IMO opinion if you cannot take the odd SU rate you need to chill out. For me even if I felt it unfair it so not a big deal in the grand scheme of dooyoo rating. Guides are not beyond reproach and I don't feel we should be any more immune from SU rates than anyone else. I know I have had my fair share and have given out a fair few too, it is not the end of the world. I also don't think Guides should be blocking members as it sends out the wrong signals. Mind you I am not an advocate of the block function anyway. If you don't want to talk to someone just don't respond. Hardly rocket science.

I'd be concerned if any member started talking the way that this guide apparently is, though. So-called "revenge" rating is, 99% of the time, unprovable and any review should have a smattering of the top three rates on them if the number of reads is large enough. It's a simple matter of statistics. For any guide to start giving off about "unfair" rates etc. (whether this is public or private is immaterial) sends warning signals to me, suggesting that they're either too thin skinned to publish work publicly for criticism, or equally as bad, they don't understand the peer review system. Either way, they or Dooyoo should take a look at whether they should be guiding IMO.

brooke3

The thing with this situation is that being a guide is irrelevant. Yes, I took it worse from this person because they're a guide and therefore supposedly in a position of responsibility. I have a lot of people sending me unpleasant messages on a daily basis, that's just something you have to accept if you rate exactly how you feel.
But the basic issue here has nothing to do with her guide status and I think is a common problem on dooyoo.

Most people seem to think that if a review is short, poorly written, the member is new and the content is very clearly lacking then it's acceptable to rate SU but if the review is long, well written and the member has been around for a while then they should get at least a useful, if not a very useful regardless of how useful you think that review is.
I personally don't think reviews with excessive information in are useful, I don't think reviews that are just description are useful, I don't think that reviews where a significant proportion of the review is off topic are useful. Occasionally I will make an exception if a review is amazing and rate something with any of those things as useful or very useful.

The problem here is that some of the members of dooyoo who have been members for a long time or even who are guides and are generally well respected on dooyoo are writing reviews that I personally don't think are useful. That's mypersonal opinoin which I'm entitled to but many members of dooyoo don't agree with it.

I agree with Camp Freddy, many people don't understand the peer review system. If they did they would realise that these things are subjective (is that the right word) and not everyone will share the same opinion. We aren't robots after all.
The second thing I agree with is that if you can't take some criticism then don't publish your stuff online. Part of what I do when I review is criticise published books and sometimes I feel guilty for that and think, what if this was my novel people were ripping to pieces? Then I think if someone can't handle criticism their novels should stay on their computers for their eyes only. It's the same thing with reviews.
Criticism isn't easy to take, sometimes we react badly and afterwards realise that we were out of line, that's human nature. If the guide in question was to apologise and say that they over reacted I would understand completely. I've over reacted to these things myself, especially when I've put a lot of work into something but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable behaviour.

Camp_Freddy

brooke3 wrote: »

The thing with this situation is that being a guide is irrelevant. Yes, I took it worse from this person because they're a guide and therefore supposedly in a position of responsibility.

I disagree here, Brooke. During every single period I've been a guide, I've tried very hard to push an idea of "guide integrity", to show that we're fair, that we understand the system and that we're as impartial as we can possibly be. The very idea that a guide, more than any member, doesn't understand the system is a concern to me. I have some very strong ideas about guiding which I often mention on the guide group and often in very strong terms. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that Grovesy was slapping my wrists for it, wasn't it, Grovesy?

brooke3 wrote: »

I have a lot of people sending me unpleasant messages on a daily basis, that's just something you have to accept if you rate exactly how you feel.
But the basic issue here has nothing to do with her guide status and I think is a common problem on dooyoo.

First of all, no-one should have to deal with unpleasant messages. If you get any, report them to Dooyoo. If you often find yourself rating against the grain, it might be wise to leave an explanatory comment. Any half decent comment will show that you're not rating spitefully should Dooyoo become involved.

brooke3 wrote: »

Most people seem to think that if a review is short, poorly written, the member is new and the content is very clearly lacking then it's acceptable to rate SU but if the review is long, well written and the member has been around for a while then they should get at least a useful, if not a very useful regardless of how useful you think that review is.

I personally don't think reviews with excessive information in are useful, I don't think reviews that are just description are useful, I don't think that reviews where a significant proportion of the review is off topic are useful. Occasionally I will make an exception if a review is amazing and rate something with any of those things as useful or very useful.

The problem here is that some of the members of dooyoo who have been members for a long time or even who are guides and are generally well respected on dooyoo are writing reviews that I personally don't think are useful. That's mypersonal opinoin which I'm entitled to but many members of dooyoo don't agree with it.

It's good to see someone that knows her own mind and is prepared to stand by it. Too many people on the site just click VU for any number of reasons and, frankly, it's a huge negative impact on the site. Can you imagine how many people would use Dooyoo if reviews were actually rated by usefulness rather than a bunch of !!!!tards hitting "VU" all the time? Imagine how many more members we'd have as people would see Dooyoo as a site worth joining (plus readds would be up and, following that, our own income). Sadly, while Dooyoo might act on revenge rates, they'll do nothing at all about serial over-raters. That doesn't send out a good signal IMO.

brooke3 wrote: »

I agree with Camp Freddy, many people don't understand the peer review system. If they did they would realise that these things are subjective (is that the right word) and not everyone will share the same opinion. We aren't robots after all.

The second thing I agree with is that if you can't take some criticism then don't publish your stuff online. Part of what I do when I review is criticise published books and sometimes I feel guilty for that and think, what if this was my novel people were ripping to pieces? Then I think if someone can't handle criticism their novels should stay on their computers for their eyes only. It's the same thing with reviews.

Criticism isn't easy to take, sometimes we react badly and afterwards realise that we were out of line, that's human nature. If the guide in question was to apologise and say that they over reacted I would understand completely. I've over reacted to these things myself, especially when I've put a lot of work into something but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable behaviour.

You have to be both subjective AND objective when rating work. You have to be objective in that you should not really care about the author.

You have to be subjective in that you rate according to how helpful you thought the review was.

In less fancy talk, you rate according to the content of the review and how it relates to you, not who the review author is or how it relates to the previous or next reviewer.

The only thing you can do, as review writers, is write the review you would want to read and then let the ratings fall where they're given. Maybe you hold the majority point of view and your review will get mostly VUs etc. or maybe your experiences don't match anyone elses and you'll perhaps get mostly lower rates. This isn't a sleight against you or your writing ability, just a matter of matching tastes and experiences. I could, for example, buy the complete Lord of the Rings book in one volume (all 1600-odd pages, I think) and then write a review describing how I usdd it to hammer in nails. Despite being a work of genius, style-wises, as a review it helps no-one. It gets low rates.

There are real world examples of this if you look at Dooyoo or Ciao (without the proper ratings, sadly).

Personally, I think I'm dead on about taking criticism, but I've been at this for 9 years (eeeek) and there's only one person that I can't take it from and that's because I simply don't trust people that can't distinguish between fact and their personal opinion and have been rated down (if the comments are to be believed) because of this.

brooke3

First of all I used to report unpleassant messages to dooyoo but they told me there was nothing they can do about anything that happens in PMs...let me find their email...
"As dooyooMails are private, we can't act on them in the same way that
we can with comments or content in reviews. However, you can at any time
simply block a member from sending you dooyooMails by clicking the red cross
icon next to their last message."
So I've given up reporting them to dooyoo. I was copy and pasting every one but I'm not bothering now, it's a waste of time.

Once again you make excellent points, all of them true.

I can't understnad why people don't understand the importance of rating honestly.

cmh4135

I've been thinking about this PM issue and am going to raise it with Dooyoo. I had a similar response to you but think that, if the PM function is offered, then it shouldn't be capable of being used as a tool to bully others without reproach.

Fiver29

I am somewhat surprised at Dooyoo's reply to Brooke, as a site owner if I had complaints about abusive PMs, I would certainly investigate and is necessary remove the PMing privileges of the offender. Its a PITA when one member is hell bent on being a pain (not that I'm saying this guide is, but a member on my site was at one point), but you don't open a site to the public expecting life to be all rosy, and you should have procedures in place to nip it in the bud.

barongreenback

Fiver29 wrote: »

I am somewhat surprised at Dooyoo's reply to Brooke, as a site owner if I had complaints about abusive PMs, I would certainly investigate and is necessary remove the PMing privileges of the offender. Its a PITA when one member is hell bent on being a pain (not that I'm saying this guide is, but a member on my site was at one point), but you don't open a site to the public expecting life to be all rosy, and you should have procedures in place to nip it in the bud.

I am hopeful that dooyoo will see the members viewpoint and at least acknowledge abusive messages. They have always been quite reactive to members suggestions in the past. I think they have to be careful that it is not simply a matter of disagreements getting out of hand and there is some genuine abusive messaging going on. However, a cut and paste is easy enough to send. My worry would be members crying wolf and getting involved in personal conflicts is not for me, time well spent by dooyoo staff.

jo_b_2

brooke3 wrote: »

Most people seem to think that if a review is short, poorly written, the member is new and the content is very clearly lacking then it's acceptable to rate SU but if the review is long, well written and the member has been around for a while then they should get at least a useful, if not a very useful regardless of how useful you think that review is.
I personally don't think reviews with excessive information in are useful, I don't think reviews that are just description are useful, I don't think that reviews where a significant proportion of the review is off topic are useful. Occasionally I will make an exception if a review is amazing and rate something with any of those things as useful or very useful.

The problem here is that some of the members of dooyoo who have been members for a long time or even who are guides and are generally well respected on dooyoo are writing reviews that I personally don't think are useful. That's mypersonal opinoin which I'm entitled to but many members of dooyoo don't agree with it.

I think you have really hit the nail on the head. I'd say the vast majority of readers do consider the amount of effort that goes into a review when they rate so they feel comfortable down-rating a very short newbie review but less so giving a really long comprehensive review anything less than a VU. (I know I don't down-rate really long reviews unless they were totally off-topic.)

There are some writers who write really well but the reviews are just far, far too long. If I was somebody interested in the actual product/place etc being reviewed, I would actually struggle to find the relevant information because there is just too much stuff in there. Writing concisely and including the really pertinent information is a skill, rather than writing absolutely everything there is to know about a specific topic! These sorts of reviews do get crowned though, because of the amount of effort that has gone into them.

It seems ungracious to rate a review that detailed and comprehensive anything less than a VU although I personally don't tend to nominate this type of writing. (To be honest, most have already been crowned by the time I read them.) I just think it then sets a trend for all reviews to be tediously long to be considered really worthwhile.

I always try to describe my thoughts and opinions on a product in the fewest words necessary to do it justice and not the most. Don't get me wrong - my reviews aren't particularly short but I don't see the need to bore your readers senseless with unnecessary detail. My most recent crown was for a hair product and my review was 758 words long. Another writer had previously got a crown for the same product and her review was 2212 words long!! Obviously, Dooyoo felt both reviews were crownworthy and the other review was a great review. (I think I might have nominated that one myself, actually.) I just think it shows that a product can be reviewed in 1454 words less and still be a very useful, crownworthy review!

jo_b_2

That's set me thinking and I've just had to check the word-counts on all my crowned reviews. (I know - I really should get out more!)

Out of my 11 crowned reviews, only two have been over 1000 words. My shortest crowned review was 667 words and the majority have been 800-900 odd words. (Incidentally, I've written plenty of other reviews over the 1000 word mark trying for crowns and not got them.) :rolleyes:

Sorry for going slightly off on a tangent here but it just set me thinking that longer reviews aren't necessarily any better than shorter but concisely written reviews.

brooke3

Just thought you all might like to know that the guide from my previous post has PMed me to apologise, she was just having a bad day and took it out on me.

I feel like a bit of a hypocrit criticising people for writing long reviews because most of mine are over a thousand words but I think that some things can't be revealed in any less while others really shouldn't be reviewed in more than 500...like for example a chocolate bar, how much useful information can you give?