vicious dog

lilibeth

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

There is no argument between me and MrsE.

Yes, the dog has been in the OPs garden, but the dogs motives are, to be honest unknown, by you, me and the OP. It should not be able to get in there full stop, the dog does not know whose garden it is, and should be safely fenced in. My dog would wander into next doors garden if she could, and may well try and get in their back door.

Lots of people proclaim their dog to be nasty to put off intruders and to look hard. Most of the lads round here with staffies will tell you that the dog will 'have yer arm off!'- just like they will tell you they are 'well hard' and have six girlfriends - its rarely true in my experience!!

My gran used to tell people the dog was nasty as she was worried about intruders and muggers (it wasnt!). Its not unusual, and some people teach theri dog to bark on hearing the words 'mind the dog' or - so that if they are walking alone and are made uncomfortable by someone approaching they can say 'mind the dog', the dog will bark, and the other person will keep their distance for fear it is a nasty dog! Not a bad idea if you are a woman and dog walk alone!

And my experience is the opposite I suspect we must move in very different circles. Nobody I know would proudly proclaim their dog to be nasty to 'look hard' as you put it. They are much more likely to tell you what a soft old thing the dog is. The one person I know who does say to keep away from the dog has it as a guard dog on a farm and it is not a lie to 'look hard'.

And quite apart from that I fail to see how your opinion that dog owners are liars and when they say they are nasty they aren't is relevant or helpful.

The fact is the owners have said it will attack her baby if it gets near it and it gets in her garden.
Only a complete and utter moron would read the 'oh they are probably trying to look hard' line and take it seriously. The end result could be a dead baby.

MrsTinks

CFC wrote: »

I happened across your post about your dog getting out in another thread I was following - I didn't realise you only had one - from somewhere I gained the impression that you had one Rottweiler and one RottxGSD, and I did not want to assume that it was the Rottweiler wandering around on its own, because that would be the height of irresponsibility. There was no intention to misrepresent you.

What rott/gsd mix??? the one in my avvy?

Hate to break this to you... but it's a gsd/BORDER COLLIE mix and in my view you're actually more likely to get a serious bite wound off a BC than a rottie so technically she's more dangerous than a rottie/gsd mix... however - I can assure you that she wouldn't bite anyone unless they physically cornered her and/or she was hurt and in severe pain - then I couldn't guarantee what any dog would do. Even if you try and goad her into biting she will go only as far as placing her teeth round your arm, she will not apply pressure and this is what we have encouraged since the day we got her, and it's come in handy too especially knowing I could "safely" stick my hands down her throat when one day she was choking on something - not something I'd try without hesitation on any old dog.

orlao - thank you for trying to explain what TigeLily has said - I tried to do so earlier in the thread but seems to have been ignored
I don't think at any point anyone (me included) have said ANY death is acceptable - in that case it was clear to me that TLUK was being factual and not joining in the media hype but instead posting the ACTUAL story of what happened - as you said, any dog over about 15 kgs could have potentially caused that death, the dogs breed was irrelevant in this case - it just HAPPENED to be a rottie and it sells far mroe papers writing "Vicious mauling by killer breed" than it does when you write "infant dropped by family pet dies tragically". I don't think anyone is saying that it wasn't tragic that the child died, we're saying stick to the facts and place the blame where it belongs! With the adults allowing the dogs to be able to access the baby unsupervised.

MrsE... what on earth had TLUKs living arrangements got to do with anything? If you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen that not only FC but I have GRILLED her over if she knew what she was doing etc... and bless her cotton socks she's stuck to her guns and answered our questions and concerns. Yes she wanted a cav (yucky dogs if you ask me lol) but she wasn't blinkered by a whim, she decided that rescue was the way to go, she has recognised training in animal care too, and she found just about the furthest breed from a Cav that I can think of... a staffy (well staffy mix... I still think she's a runty staffy but that's an ongoing debate between me and TLUK LOL). I used to live in a Studio - a TINY studio and I had 2 cats there as well as a procession of over night foster dogs (mainly deathrow mutts but also dogs being transported to their new homes). I managed just fine as did my 2 cats (actually they were more upset with the foster cats and kittens over the years than with any dogs...).

The culture of large dog ownership in the US is very diffrent to here.....in most cases it's only what we would call lapdogs that are house pets....big dogs tend to be working in one form or another. It is perfectly legal and socially acceptable to keep guard/protection dogs and allow them to bite intruders....that is their job and so the figures reflect that.

As a large dog owner I despair of the "ban the breeds" brigade........how about about "Ban the stupid, irresponsible, unconsiderate owners" instead. Keeping a dog should a priveledge (sp!) not a right.....(as should having children but don't start me on that:o ) and treated as such......I really think that would solve a lot of the "dog" problems but only IF it was properly enforced.

Orlao... are you sure you're not my long lost twin??? Couldn't have said it better myself so shan't try

As for children... maybe we should start a thread on that? I bet the two of us could have a HUGE rant about that subject alone by the sounds of it! Being pregnant myself I notice it even more now and frankly it scares me more than potentially dangerous dogs in this country

And everyone... Please be nice!
I don't always agree with people (obviously!) but I do try and at least remain polite (sorry if sarcasm occassionally creeps in - I DO try not to let it!) - so deep breaths all round and let's all have a nice glass or mug of whatever you want (I want wine but bah humbug not allowed one! - will be settling for a delicious glass of ribena instead - but do have a glass of wine on my behalf!) and let's agree that we can disagree but there is no need to be rude or personal about it

Peace out!

UKTigerlily

MrsTine wrote: »

What rott/gsd mix??? the one in my avvy?

Hate to break this to you... but it's a gsd/BORDER COLLIE mix and in my view you're actually more likely to get a serious bite wound off a BC than a rottie so technically she's more dangerous than a rottie/gsd mix... however - I can assure you that she wouldn't bite anyone unless they physically cornered her and/or she was hurt and in severe pain - then I couldn't guarantee what any dog would do. Even if you try and goad her into biting she will go only as far as placing her teeth round your arm, she will not apply pressure and this is what we have encouraged since the day we got her, and it's come in handy too especially knowing I could "safely" stick my hands down her throat when one day she was choking on something - not something I'd try without hesitation on any old dog.

orlao - thank you for trying to explain what TigeLily has said - I tried to do so earlier in the thread but seems to have been ignored
I don't think at any point anyone (me included) have said ANY death is acceptable - in that case it was clear to me that TLUK was being factual and not joining in the media hype but instead posting the ACTUAL story of what happened - as you said, any dog over about 15 kgs could have potentially caused that death, the dogs breed was irrelevant in this case - it just HAPPENED to be a rottie and it sells far mroe papers writing "Vicious mauling by killer breed" than it does when you write "infant dropped by family pet dies tragically". I don't think anyone is saying that it wasn't tragic that the child died, we're saying stick to the facts and place the blame where it belongs! With the adults allowing the dogs to be able to access the baby unsupervised.

MrsE... what on earth had TLUKs living arrangements got to do with anything? If you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen that not only FC but I have GRILLED her over if she knew what she was doing etc... and bless her cotton socks she's stuck to her guns and answered our questions and concerns. Yes she wanted a cav (yucky dogs if you ask me lol) but she wasn't blinkered by a whim, she decided that rescue was the way to go, she has recognised training in animal care too, and she found just about the furthest breed from a Cav that I can think of... a staffy (well staffy mix... I still think she's a runty staffy but that's an ongoing debate between me and TLUK LOL). I used to live in a Studio - a TINY studio and I had 2 cats there as well as a procession of over night foster dogs (mainly deathrow mutts but also dogs being transported to their new homes). I managed just fine as did my 2 cats (actually they were more upset with the foster cats and kittens over the years than with any dogs...).



Orlao... are you sure you're not my long lost twin??? Couldn't have said it better myself so shan't try

As for children... maybe we should start a thread on that? I bet the two of us could have a HUGE rant about that subject alone by the sounds of it! Being pregnant myself I notice it even more now and frankly it scares me more than potentially dangerous dogs in this country

And everyone... Please be nice!
I don't always agree with people (obviously!) but I do try and at least remain polite (sorry if sarcasm occassionally creeps in - I DO try not to let it!) - so deep breaths all round and let's all have a nice glass or mug of whatever you want (I want wine but bah humbug not allowed one! - will be settling for a delicious glass of ribena instead - but do have a glass of wine on my behalf!) and let's agree that we can disagree but there is no need to be rude or personal about it

Peace out!

Well put MrsT & FC. lol we agree on the PINK coat tho right MrsT? I think now Chaya may be a dodgy Staffie! Somedays she's just like one others not, she has the sound effects down, never heard such weird noises, the cat looks at her like !!!!!! was THAT one? lol she's snoring right now! Didya get Mic's number yet? lol

foreign_correspondent

lilibeth wrote: »

And my experience is the opposite I suspect we must move in very different circles. Nobody I know would proudly proclaim their dog to be nasty to 'look hard' as you put it. They are much more likely to tell you what a soft old thing the dog is. The one person I know who does say to keep away from the dog has it as a guard dog on a farm and it is not a lie to 'look hard'.

And quite apart from that I fail to see how your opinion that dog owners are liars and when they say they are nasty they aren't is relevant or helpful.

The fact is the owners have said it will attack her baby if it gets near it and it gets in her garden.
Only a complete and utter moron would read the 'oh they are probably trying to look hard' line and take it seriously. The end result could be a dead baby.

... more of the same. The facts are the dog should not be on anyone's garden, whatever the dog and its temprement.

The fence needs to be fixed. Do you disagree with that????

p.s I expect we do move in very different circles, never mind!

MrsE_2

Soubrette wrote: »

MrsE

Perhaps if I could make another analogy regarding the tragic death of the toddler by the two dogs.

A man recently tragically killed his own young daughter by dropping a TV on her - it was a terrible accident. I have nothing but sympathy for that poor man.

Baby P was savagely and systematically beaten up by his parent - I have no sympathy for them in the least.

In both cases a young child is dead and that cannot be changed but if I were defend the first man in a discussion because it was at tragic accident but he was was being compared to the second incident - would that make me a cold person who shouldn't have kids?

I suggest not, further I would suggest that you owe Tigerlily a bit of an apology

Sou

A toddler left alone with two rottweilers who kill it is NOT an accident & cannot be compared to one.
Baby P was not an accident either.

I don't owe Tigerlilly any apology I think they way she described that babies death in those posts was awful, read THEY WAY SHE SAID IT.

lilibeth

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

... more of the same. The facts are the dog should not be on anyone's garden, whatever the dog and its temprement.

The fence needs to be fixed. Do you disagree with that????

p.s I expect we do move in very different circles, never mind!

No not more of the same actually because I'm not trying to make out there is no risk.
The fence isn't broken it simply isn't adequate to control a large, aggressive, violent and poorly trained dog.
And its owners are clearly not fit to be in charge of such a creature especially in such an inappropriate setting.

MrsTinks

The fence needs to be "fixed" to a point where it can safely contain the dog in question - or the owners need to put in place other measures to control it and prevent its escape (to another property or public land). I don't think anyone is disputing that
MrsE I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree with you I'm afraid that I read TLUKs post as a factual account - correcting the view of the incident held by most people still... I don't think anything she stated was unfeeling towards any children, in this incident or otherwise.

TigerLily - no we still can't agree on anything pink! :P

foreign_correspondent

I am not trying to "make out there is no risk" either - but we clearly cannot assess the risk on-line.

However, whether the dog is dangerous or not, (and all dogs are potentially a risk around children and should be treat as such) the solution is potentially relatively simple (fence improved/ fixed/ whatever) and owners controlling it and stopping it from barking at the window.

All the screaming hysteria, panic and mud slinging on here is entirely unnecessary and it does apprear that anyone trying to state facts in a considered manner is jumped on as being 'uncaring'.

MrsE wrote: »

I don't owe Tigerlilly any apology I think they way she described that babies death in those posts was awful, read THEY WAY SHE SAID IT.

- what do you mean... Factually? Objectively? Without hyperbole?

Soubrette

MrsE wrote: »

A toddler left alone with two rottweilers who kill it is NOT an accident & cannot be compared to one.
Baby P was not an accident either.

I don't owe Tigerlilly any apology I think they way she described that babies death in those posts was awful, read THEY WAY SHE SAID IT.

I am confused here - are you saying that the dogs acted in a deliberate way as to attack the child and thus the whole thing is not an accident.

Or are you accepting that the dogs did not intend to attack or kill the child and it is not an accident in that the parents should not have left a child and dogs alone together - thus implying it is the parents at fault rather than the dogs?

Sou

lilibeth

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

I am not trying to "make out there is no risk" either - but we clearly cannot assess the risk on-line.

However, whether the dog is dangerous or not, (and all dogs are potentially a risk around children and should be treat as such) the solution is potentially relatively simple (fence improved/ fixed/ whatever) and owners controlling it and stopping it from barking at the window.

All the screaming hysteria, panic and mud slinging on here is entirely unnecessary and it does apprear that anyone trying to state facts in a considered manner is jumped on as being 'uncaring'.

I didn't jump on anyone stating facts.
The only thing I 'jumped on' was the nonsense you posted about most owners being liars to make themselves look hard.
And it is not screaming hysteria for someone to have an absolutely enormous issue with a violent poorly trained large dog that in addition IS from a breed noted for it's aggression and propensity to attack and kill without warning.
And it is attitudes like yours that prove to me logic and reason do not work when it comes to trusting owners will behave responsibly.
That you can't see the absolutely enormous risk here is frightening bearing in mind that you are a dog owner.


Anyone that wants to own any of the more dangerous breeds should have to

1.Have no criminal record whatsoever this includes cautions.
2.Anyone living in the property the dog lives at to undergo compulsory dog training and welfare course.
3.Compulsory 'responsibility to others course'.
4.Have a big big house in the case of the larger breeds
5.An escape proof very large garden - certified as such by the local council.
6.The dog to wear a muzzle at all times in public
7.Pass an IQ test and Personality Type Assessment.
8.Be childless and agree to be sterlised or sign a document agreeing to give the dog up if they become pregnant, and never adopt.
9.No children allowed to visit the premises were the dog lives.
10.Any dog owner whose animal cause death or injury to another human being is to be treated by the courts as though the owner his/herself committed the act.
11.Dog to be neutered and microchipped UKTigerlily™