Bad Reference - oh yes they can

tonycree

"what do you know..."
we'll leave the blonde bit out of it, hehe!!:rolleyes:
bankrupt and unemployed...
lot's of experiences there to be passed on...

andyfff

Hi
Sorry to hear about these dreadful goings on, but i would agree with the earlier post that Open University would be a good idea.
Lots of courses and some help with the costs also.

www.open.ac.uk

Good Luck and stay positive!
Andyfff

Got2change

Thank you Andy -
already on it actually

Halfway though an Openings course in Maths - which I started because I thought I was good at Maths :rotfl: :rotfl:

Bethan_x

I can honestly say, I understand your situation.

I was working for the council, as an Apprentice Administrator for just over 5 months (short time to make such an impact) and I can honestly say, my boss and I did not get on, however she didn't get on with many of the staff there. We had no problems, apart from when a few colleagues decided to make up a few rumours and tell them to the manager about me and I got called in for a verbal warning. I couldn't believe it when she said I had been rolling my eyes at senior management? I have never rolled my eyes ever, never mind doing it at work! It wasn't just her who was giving me warnings, it was my very young supervisor too, which I believe could have just been a training practice for her. As all of this trouble went on, I was getting more and more worried for my wellbeing. I was having panic attacks about just going to work she was so bad, so I had to get out and fast, because I was an apprentice I only gave a week's notice and I left on good terms with everybody dispite what had happened and even got a card and chocolates!

However, to my surprise when I asked for a reference for somewhere else, my ex-employer gave me a bad enough reference that they took the brilliant job offer away from me. Even though people had "tattle-tailed" on me, I got on with my work, I was always on time and I did anything for my colleages, how hard would it have been for her to write that? but oh no. I could sense this was coming, but I had more respect for her than this. I am extremely hurt by what has happened and have requested to see what has been said about me in the reference. I'm looking into taking legal advice over it.

I'm very sorry, but I really needed to vent that.

SarEl

Bethan_x wrote: »

I can honestly say, I understand your situation.

I was working for the council, as an Apprentice Administrator for just over 5 months (short time to make such an impact) and I can honestly say, my boss and I did not get on, however she didn't get on with many of the staff there. We had no problems, apart from when a few colleagues decided to make up a few rumours and tell them to the manager about me and I got called in for a verbal warning. I couldn't believe it when she said I had been rolling my eyes at senior management? I have never rolled my eyes ever, never mind doing it at work! It wasn't just her who was giving me warnings, it was my very young supervisor too, which I believe could have just been a training practice for her. As all of this trouble went on, I was getting more and more worried for my wellbeing. I was having panic attacks about just going to work she was so bad, so I had to get out and fast, because I was an apprentice I only gave a week's notice and I left on good terms with everybody dispite what had happened and even got a card and chocolates!

However, to my surprise when I asked for a reference for somewhere else, my ex-employer gave me a bad enough reference that they took the brilliant job offer away from me. Even though people had "tattle-tailed" on me, I got on with my work, I was always on time and I did anything for my colleages, how hard would it have been for her to write that? but oh no. I could sense this was coming, but I had more respect for her than this. I am extremely hurt by what has happened and have requested to see what has been said about me in the reference. I'm looking into taking legal advice over it.

I'm very sorry, but I really needed to vent that.

Save your money. You were there for five months and had at least two disciplinary warnings. That's all the have to say. It is truthful, but not likley to impress prospective employers.

And disciplinary warnings are not "training for managers" - they are warnings to you that something about your conduct is not acceptable.

DVardysShadow

SarEl wrote: »

... And disciplinary warnings are not "training for managers" - they are warnings to you that something about your conduct is not acceptable.

Hey, lets take Bethan at face value. Disciplinary warnings are not supposed to be "training for managers". And you were not there, Bethan was. So if Bethan says the disciplinarys were used as training for managers, her opinion on that rates a bit above yours on this site - and in court, of course, you take the opinion you are paid to take.

Fair enough to suggest she takes a look at what happens to see if anything she did brought the disciplinary down on her. But to slap her down so roundly on no evidence is out of order.

SarEl

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Hey, lets take Bethan at face value. Disciplinary warnings are not supposed to be "training for managers". And you were not there, Bethan was. So if Bethan says the disciplinarys were used as training for managers, her opinion on that rates a bit above yours on this site - and in court, of course, you take the opinion you are paid to take.

Fair enough to suggest she takes a look at what happens to see if anything she did brought the disciplinary down on her. But to slap her down so roundly on no evidence is out of order.

I.m sorry but let's not take Bethan at face value. It is her opinion that her former employers use disciplinaries as "training for managers". That does not make it a fact. The fact is that she has two or more disciplinary warnings in five months of employment. This may be mentioned in references because it is a fact.

Of course she may start action for defamation. She will just need about £10k to pay as a deposit to the court. Oh, and her legal teams fees of course, which will easily top £10k. But of course the problem is - it isn't defamation because she does have those annoying disciplinaries on her record which makes it true. The High Court doesn't have a look to see whether they were warranted or not (they can't - they don't have jurisdiction) - just whether they are facts.

Of course if she can't afford that then there is always negligent mistatement. That's much cheaper for her. But since she still has those disciplinaries and they also won't look at whether they are warranted, only whether they exist... Oh dear, she's lost agaon and still has a legal bill.

But if she wants to waste her money on legal action - which she will have to pay for because this does not come free of charge, then fine. It will be an expensive way of finding out that employers can give truthful references.

DVardysShadow

SarEl wrote: »

I.m sorry but let's not take Bethan at face value. It is her opinion that her former employers use disciplinaries as "training for managers". That does not make it a fact. The fact is that she has two or more disciplinary warnings in five months of employment. This may be mentioned in references because it is a fact.

Of course she may start action for defamation. She will just need about £10k to pay as a deposit to the court. Oh, and her legal teams fees of course, which will easily top £10k. But of course the problem is - it isn't defamation because she does have those annoying disciplinaries on her record which makes it true. The High Court doesn't have a look to see whether they were warranted or not (they can't - they don't have jurisdiction) - just whether they are facts.

Of course if she can't afford that then there is always negligent mistatement. That's much cheaper for her. But since she still has those disciplinaries and they also won't look at whether they are warranted, only whether they exist... Oh dear, she's lost agaon and still has a legal bill.

But if she wants to waste her money on legal action - which she will have to pay for because this does not come free of charge, then fine. It will be an expensive way of finding out that employers can give truthful references.

But look at what you said

they are warnings to you that something about your conduct is not acceptable.

In the strictest sense, it is true. But equally they are unwarranted warnings, if we take Bethan at face value.

You know better than any of us that what the courts accept as fact is far from guaranteed to be fact. So much so, that when you posted you must have forgotten the distinction.
Yes your warnings about how this could play out in legal space are probably as correct as anyone could say.

But to say

they are warnings to you that something about your conduct is not acceptable.

is unjustifiably offensive towards Bethan, because it is entirely possible that Bethan's conduct is entirely acceptable. Only a fool would give so much credence to an employer on so little evidence. You need to qualify your statement to make it clear that this is no more than the employer's value judgement, not a matter of unqualified fact.

SarEl

Warranted or not they are warnings, they are on her employment record and no court in the UK is going to take them off her record. The courts will not look at whether they are warrented or not. There is no court in this land that can decide whether a disciplinary warning is warranted or not. Not even an employment tribunal, who can only look at whether a dismissal is warranted.

And I agree - it is the employers opinion that there was something in Bethans behaviour that was unacceptable. It is also Bethan's opinion that employers allow managers to practice disciplinaries by disciplining staff without cause.

kiwi07

Bethan_x wrote: »

I can honestly say, I understand your situation.

I was working for the council, as an Apprentice Administrator for just over 5 months (short time to make such an impact) and I can honestly say, my boss and I did not get on, however she didn't get on with many of the staff there. We had no problems, apart from when a few colleagues decided to make up a few rumours and tell them to the manager about me and I got called in for a verbal warning. I couldn't believe it when she said I had been rolling my eyes at senior management? I have never rolled my eyes ever, never mind doing it at work! It wasn't just her who was giving me warnings, it was my very young supervisor too, which I believe could have just been a training practice for her. As all of this trouble went on, I was getting more and more worried for my wellbeing. I was having panic attacks about just going to work she was so bad, so I had to get out and fast, because I was an apprentice I only gave a week's notice and I left on good terms with everybody dispite what had happened and even got a card and chocolates!

However, to my surprise when I asked for a reference for somewhere else, my ex-employer gave me a bad enough reference that they took the brilliant job offer away from me. Even though people had "tattle-tailed" on me, I got on with my work, I was always on time and I did anything for my colleages, how hard would it have been for her to write that? but oh no. I could sense this was coming, but I had more respect for her than this. I am extremely hurt by what has happened and have requested to see what has been said about me in the reference. I'm looking into taking legal advice over it.

I'm very sorry, but I really needed to vent that.

I am in the same boat with you. Today I received a letter saying that job offer was withdrawn because of bad reference from my previous place of work. I worked for the council and was in 6 months probationary. I did not get on with my manager. I can honestly say she did not like me from day one, had a predjudice against me even before I started. whatever I did she was not happy. I have to say I tried my best. She just could not change her attitude towards me. She did not give me a permanent job and my probationary ended as being unsuccessful. I've only been in that job for 6 months but it was my first qualified job.

I have been looking for a new job for the last six months and had some interviews while doing some voluntary work at the local charity. The manager from a charity gave me a good reference but my perspective employer wanted the reference from my previous job. I had no choice as to give them contact details of their HR dep. (I did not want to give my manager's).

I am so upset right now I dont really know what to do next... It was such a good job offer. I feel like my manager still wants to ruin my future by giving a bad reference...
I really dont know that to do and want to put in my application form.
I am thinking now not to mention about my first qualified job at all but it was my only "proper" job and the only experience in that field...

Its' just awful... So yes that really can give a bad reference and they aren't afraid of anything.