Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

SD-253

Dee0 wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to the whole LPG bulk buying world. Last December we moved into a house in West Wales with a tank already installed. We had the tank filled just before the worst of the weather hit at a cost of £520 - 49.9ppl without a contract or anything. That was a shock as we were used to mains gas prices! Anyway, we're almost out now and our gas company, West Wales Gas, has sent us a welcome pack with various delivery and payment options and a 2 year contract with a £52 +VAT standing charge.

So my questions are - should I go for a regular 8 - 12 week top up service or call them when ready? Is there a 'best' time of the year to buy in bulk? If the prices rise so quickly (looking at earlier posts) it sounds like the regular top up might make more sense. I've looked on various gas websites and the prices quoted on the home pages are in the 51ppl region so is it even worth haggling?

We're going to insulate the roof properly and install a log burner so our gas use should drop I hope.

Thanks

Below is the site for all the companies that will deliver to you:-
http://www.uklpg.org/supplier-search/search.php

All suppliers put there details on here as they would lose sales if they didn't. It is always worth haggling? even if you get a penny off. Each 1p off = £20 per 2000 Litres. I wouldn't be surprised if they expected you to.
Start the negotiation with the price of LPG then the tank rental but £52 + Vat is as good as you will get.
Now how much did you spend on natural gas last year? now double it! You should convert it to liters IE square metre of gas = how many liters. When talking to the salesman say "I estimate my bill based on my natural gas usage will be........and double it."
Make sure you know the figures for square metre of gas = so many liters as may ask.

"So my questions are - should I go for a regular 8 - 12 week top up service" Sounds good as you will get the average but that assume that "West Wales Gas" decrease there prices as well as increase them?? Ask what there prices have been over the last year? As in rises/falls

Or call them when ready? The advantage of this is you can start a saving account and have the money ready when you need it although you do have to have discipline?
"Is there a 'best' time of the year to buy in bulk?" Obviously this would be the summer but who can predict the future? You only have to look at the oil price to see that.......I mean the world is not doing well economically, near to a recession so price should be falling not rising but them came Tunisia Egypt and Libya who can say.

"51ppl region so is it even worth haggling" Mine is less and there is a lot paying less that 51ppl, no doubt with recently signed contracts so definitely.
"Should I go for a regular 8 - 12 week top up" Not many offer this service unusual. Make sure you have not one of those thingies where they send a signal to tell the office when you need topping up as they leave it till last moment.
"Install a log burner" LPG can be far cheaper and I mean far cheaper but it is entirely dependent on where you live. Prices have rocketed here (Lincolnshire) and I am very pleased I bought a log burner but I have got wood free for last 3 years so paid for itself but if I had to pay for wood I would have made a loss compared to LPG a big loss.
"We're going to insulate the roof properly" Look around for special offers as electric companies etc are often looking to "offset there carbon emission" I got triple roles of 6" insulation for £1 each. Councils are fitting for less than you can buy it? Found one for a mate I think it was £47 for the roof and £60 walls. Even got those light bulbs from Tesco for a penny each bought 40ish gave a load to landlord of pub.

Now we have one more thing you should look at and that is the actual contract. For instance shells seem good IE no more that 3p every 6 months. Give that part close scrutany i.e. don't sign till you have a day to read it, don't be pressurised.

HateLPG

I guess we all missed this when it happened:

http://lpgasmagazine.co.uk/industry/Royal-Warrant-for-Flogas.htm

:eek: GOBSMACKED!!:eek:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

HateLPG

And this makes for interesting reading too, from Shell!

http://www.shellgas.co.uk/index.html?page=68

Before you all panic (or think there's some great contract out there offering 2ppl/six months), this page is an "archive" page and in the context context of the sharp rises in LPG price of 2008. No prizes for spotting the glaring inconsistency here, though!

Q: My contract states that you can only increase my price by 2ppl in any six months. How can you give me a further increase?

This is not an increase to your price but a temporary surcharge that we will take off when the LPG supply price comes down to normal levels.

Immediately following which, they say:

Q: Has the last surcharge now become a price increase?

Yes. We increased the price in December 2007 hoping that market prices would start to fall early 2008. We continued to monitor the market; this hasn’t shown any indication of falling below levels before the temporary surcharge was put in place. The current cost of LPG is now at a record level and we have now had to make this surcharge permanent.

(My Red)

D'oh!

frankie

HateLPG wrote: »

I guess we all missed this when it happened:

http://lpgasmagazine.co.uk/industry/Royal-Warrant-for-Flogas.htm

:eek: GOBSMACKED!!:eek:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I guess 'she' can afford to pay Flogas prices!

LittleVermin

frankie wrote: »

I guess 'she' can afford to pay Flogas prices!

Surely frankie, we all pay? i.e. NONE of us can escape from supporting Flogas (unless of course you pay no tax). Maybe we should all with-hold a portion of our tax? ...until HM gets a cheaper supplier. But maybe she gets a very sweet deal?

HateLPG

SD-253_(a.k.a._brandeberryj) wrote: »

Furthermore I thought they couldn't take it away they had to sell it to new company???????

Just to clarify, the situation is thus:

• The outgoing supplier must offer the incoming supplier the opportunity to buy the tank at the price as defined in the fixed formula laid down by the Competition Commision in the Domestic Bulk LPG Order of 13th October 2008 (effective from 13th April 2009);
• The incoming supplier may choose whether or not to buy the tank (e.g. if the existing tank is old or has non-standard/proprietary fittings they will almost certainly decline the offer);
• If the incoming supplier does opt to buy the existing tank, this is a transaction between the two suppliers and there is no charge to the customer.
• If the incoming supplier chooses not to buy the tank, then the old tank belonging to the outgoing supplier is removed, a new tank belonging to the incoming supplier is installed in its place and all gas will be transferred from the old tank to the new tank. There is no charge to the customer in such a situation.

NOTE: If the customer chooses at this point to change TYPE of tank (for example, to have an underground tank installed in place of an overground tank), there may be other additional costs exactly as there would be if the customer opted to change tank-type without changing supplier.

(LittleVermin posted comprehensively on this a couple of months back URL]http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=40546144&postcount=632[/URL, complete with useful links to various additional sources of information)

HTH

Ozzysmate

HateLPG wrote: »

I guess we all missed this when it happened:

http://lpgasmagazine.co.uk/industry/Royal-Warrant-for-Flogas.htm

:eek: GOBSMACKED!!:eek:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Flogas has also been awarded the Carbon Trust Standard as a result of improving its carbon efficiency by 18.8%*.

*Level of carbon dioxide emissions relative to turnover when comparing 2009 emissions and turnover against the averages of 2007 and 2008.


Am I missing something here or is the way to improve carbon efficiency simply to do nothing, just increase prices?

Ozzysmate

Another thought on Flogas' carbon efficiency and the recent letter advising of a regrettable price rise of 8ppl.:

This rise is to become effective as of 1st April. Placing an order, at the pre-rise, cut-off date of today, 12th March, has probably had the desired effect of a massive panic buy (I know I would have ordered). Now just suppose, FG, like many companies have a financial year that runs 1st April to 31st March, that's a nice little boost to 2010's turnover........... Or am I just being cynical?

GrandadRob

Well this seems to be another example of half of society being totally out of touch with the other half. Obviously those awarding Flogas titles, have no idea what goes on in the real world of LPG consumers. They must belong to the same Club, or Organization which just goes around patting each other on the back for no reason at all.

But in my opinion this is indicative of what goes on in this country today. It is proved by Government bringing out schemes which they THINK solve problems, when actually nothing could be further from the truth.
There are several paralell worlds out there.....................:eek:

HateLPG

I was thinking this morning about the economics of buying LPG, specifically in respect to setting up "Buyers Consortia" and what the optimum size for any consortium might be.

It is well known that for any commodity, the greater your annual usage, the better the price at which you can buy that commodity, and the more clout you have with your supplier.

From various posts that have been made in this thread, we know that for your average domestic user, the supply companies will have various "bandings". Typically, these will be something like:

• < 1500 litres per year
• 1500 - 5000 litres per year
• > 5000 litres per year

We also know that Garages selling LPG for Automotive use are shifting substantially greater volumes than this and as a result are getting somewhat better ex-duty, ex-VAT prices than the humble domestic user.

BUT, there has to be a point at which any further increase in volume, while perhaps giving the buyer a bit more "clout" with the supplier, will not lead to any further significant reduction in price.

Bearing in mind that setting up a buyer consortium is, at best, a difficult, tedious and time-consuming process which will become ever more difficult to manage as more people join, the important question is:

"What is the optimum size (in terms of projected annual consumption) for a buyer's consortium, beyond which the additional 'cost' in terms of time and effort to organise and it do not deliver a commensurate return on that 'investment'"?

Or put more simply:

"at what level of annual consumption, do we reach the point where no further significant reductions in price are likely to be available"?

If you are reading this, David.T, could you make any comment please???