Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Sultana12345

FYI they've now conceded that this breaks the terms of their contract and we are free to shop elsewhere.   Not sure i'll bother signing a fixed price deal in future. Thanks 

Mister_G

As I posted elsewhere:

I think that you will find that LPG is a "waste product" from the refining of oil and therefore its price is more linked to the crude oil price rather than the natural gas price.

As oil prices are currently more stable than gas at the moment, I do not see it suffering the same increases as gas is going through.

I reckon your supplier were on pretty dodgy ground stating that the wholesale price of LPG had increased that much.

JerryW

Sultana12345 said:

FYI they've now conceded that this breaks the terms of their contract and we are free to shop elsewhere.   Not sure i'll bother signing a fixed price deal in future. Thanks 

Makes no sense ... if you hadn't signed a fixed price contract, the increase wouldn't have broken it and thus allowed you to look elsewhere .. and there still seem to be lots of good deals to be negotiated. I'm on 29p/l currently ..

LittleVermin

Mister_G said:

As I posted elsewhere:

I think that you will find that LPG is a "waste product" from the refining of oil and therefore its price is more linked to the crude oil price rather than the natural gas price.

As oil prices are currently more stable than gas at the moment, I do not see it suffering the same increases as gas is going through.

I reckon your supplier were on pretty dodgy ground stating that the wholesale price of LPG had increased that much.

Formerly LPG (mostly propane - C3H8, plus butane - C4H10) was indeed a bit of a by-product / waste product from refining crude........ but more uses now. Yes, price is linked to crude more than natural gas (methane - CH4). I have posted a link to a propane futures chart a couple of weeks ago but here it is again. Propane futures price Sept 2019 was mid-high 300s, Sept 2020 down to 300+/-20....now just gone over 700. Here's the link again (I'm not posting the actual chart - it's obviously copyright!): https://www.theice.com/products/6590282/Propane-Argus-CIF-ARA-Future/data?marketId=5680734&span=3

JerryW

Mister_G said:

As I posted elsewhere:

I think that you will find that LPG is a "waste product" from the refining of oil and therefore its price is more linked to the crude oil price rather than the natural gas price.

As oil prices are currently more stable than gas at the moment, I do not see it suffering the same increases as gas is going through.

I reckon your supplier were on pretty dodgy ground stating that the wholesale price of LPG had increased that much.

40% of lpg is refined from crude oil, 60% from wet natural gas. That is globally, UK may be different ..

Mister_G

Yes, I can't seem to find a figure specific to the UK.  Obviously the home generated LPG should be fairly stable in price, but I can imagine the imports going up.

Lumphammer2

Two months to renewal time.  Currently with Flogas at 38p (was 35p year 1, then 38p year 2).  Flogas won't requote until one month before contract expiry date.  Tank about £100 pa.

Other quotes.  Calor 37p fixed for 2 years if increase, can get out of contract + £92pa tank.

Avanti 35p for 12 months then up to 3p increase per six months for second year + £110 tank.

Callow (local firm) 'Cost' + 20p per litre.  Currently 49p!  Unbelievable, frankly.  It seems they can pretty much charge what they like during a 2 year contract.

LPG save....35p fixed for year 1 then year 2 price cap of 3p rise (Flogas).  They say this is a 'Special Term' which supersedes Flogas standard T & C clause 8.4 (which says 12p cap).  LPG Save  stress that the 3p cap is an 'all-inclusive' cap, protecting you from both increases in the cost of Wholesale LPG and Operational Costs (Business costs).'

LPGSave offering says I can 'switch' as long as I am within 90 days of my existing contract.  I have used them before and always wondered how they can offer better than Flogas directly and am tempted to take up their offer, without even waiting another month for Flogas.

Any views?

Sorting_Hat

Hello you can switch within 28 days of your existing agreement.
What happens is though the new firm cant fill the tank until the original end date.
So it might be an idea to fill up before switching if there could be a 28 day or so lag.

walpurgis02

Hi 

I don’t know whether I have stumbled across a potential can of worms that could affect many LPG users.

It began a few weeks ago when I started to look for a new supplier and contacted one of the brokers who is mentioned frequently in this forum. He asked me to send some photos of my tank which I did - and he promptly informed me that the tank was “non-compliant” because of its surroundings, which include some ivy-covered fences.

Less than a week later, I got a letter from my current supplier informing me that a representative of the company had visited the tank (without my knowledge) and found that there was “restricted access” to the tank and requesting that vegetation be kept a distance of 3m from the tank on three sides and, providing that the vegetation is non-deciduous, at 1m distance on the fourth side. I don’t know whether this letter was coincidental to my original enquiry.

The tank has been in its location for more than 20 years and over the years has been visited dozens of LPG industry representatives. Not one of them has ever mentioned that the tank’s surroundings might be a problem. I trim the vegetation a couple of times a year, so its appearance has not changed much over the years. 

My current supplier has visited the tank about half a dozen times - including an inspection and service last year that lasted several hours - but again has never mentioned any potential problems.

Apparently one requirement in the regulations is that tanker drivers should be able to see the tank when making deliveries. In my case, because of the fence mentioned previously, this has never been the case - and again no one has ever raised it as an issue. I do wonder whether some members of the LPG industry have previously turned a blind eye to some of the regulations.  

I don’t know whether something has changed, either in terms of the regulations, or the way they are enforced. (I did ask my current supplier about this and didn’t get a response.)

The LPG industry body, Liquid Gas, UK publishes a set of 28 Codes of Practice, each costing £90, so if you wanted a whole set, it would set you back more than £2,500 (although there is a “gold licence” available if you need all of them). Four of the codes specifically cover bulk LPG - so you get them for a mere £360. But, realistically, no customer is going to buy these guides, so we have to rely on the industry to let us know what they contain.

My supplier referred me to the Code of Practice 1 Part 2 which apparently covers the siting of propane gas tanks. This was updated in April 2021, but I don’t know whether any new requirements were introduced for the surroundings of bulk LPG tanks in this edition. If they were, it could affect thousands of LPG users up and down the country - without them being aware, unless their supplier tells them or they try to change supplier. In some cases, it could be very costly to comply - if, for example, a mature tree is less than 3m from a tank needs to be cut down. In the most severe cases, the tank might need to be moved.

This all raises several questions, including:

• have there indeed been changes in the codes of practice?
• if so, can they be applied retrospectively?
• who is responsible for enforcing the codes and what sanctions do they have (if any)?

If any forum members have experience or knowledge of these issues, I would like to hear.





 


  

JerryW

Hi Walpurgis (great name!)

Well it is certainly true that regulations have changed in recent years and become more strict. When I changed supplier recently using LPG Save, which I guess is who you were referring to, I had to send photos and at their request, remove a fence.

The tanker drivers just want to deliver their gas and seldom carry out much of an inspection unless they have some sort of physical problem accessing the tank.

When my house was built in 1970, the tank was sited in a brick enclosure, and Calor gas happily filled it for nearly 40 years. When I sought to move supplier their engineer inspected the tank and said it was the "Most noncompliant tank he had ever seen." To their credit Calor accepted this and supplied a new tank in a better position and a new set of pipework.

If the company is referring you to specific regulations it seems to me the least they should do is to supply you with a copy.