Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Macadamia

It is great to see all these prices. I am stunned at how 'hidden' and how varied they are.

When I looked again my 62.9 and 72.9 prices did not include vat.

Boo to you FLOGAS!

Thanks littleVermin for pulling things together and making this, as you say, the next best thing to a comparison site.

LittleVermin

Macadamia wrote: »

It is great to see all these prices. <snip>
When I looked again my 62.9 and 72.9 prices did not include vat. <snip>

thozza wrote: »

Just had another haggle with Northern LPG Supplies/LPG homeheat, result is 50.5p inc VAT, for 5,000 l/yr, up from 47.5p. They had written proposing a price of 55.5p inc VAT.

Northern LPG / LPG Homeheat say on their website (here) that they pay the VAT. That sounds brilliant - VAT is 17.5%, right? Yes, BUT...on heating fuel (and associated works like tank siting - see HMRC here - clauses 3.2.1 and 2.2) it's at the reduced rate of only 5%. So thozza's VAT-inclusive prices need to be divided by 1.05 i.e. his 50.5 is 48.1 before VAT so that's the figure we need to compare with all the other figures on the forum.

Ace_gas_guzzler wrote: »

Crumbs! I must have struck lucky a couple of months ago, (August / September!). Avanti, 12 month fixed price, 41.9p per litre and tank rental of £60 per year!!:j

Lucky? I think the only luck was ending a contract as the wholesale price began a sustained fall which was over the spring/summer. As you didn't need much heat you held off and got revised quotes as the wholesale price fell ..... then fixed the best one (Avanti) quickly when it looked as if the price had turned. So, yes, "luck" in timing ...but also help from lots of people who posted their prices, several pms (!) and the charts HateLPG makes up (e.g. here).

Maybe there was luck in finding this forum. So ... how do we make it easier for others to find it?

The LPG suppliers want to treat us like mushrooms and keep us in the dark!
..

chubbs85240

Another small update on my situation

I recieved a quote from Avantigas eventually - 41.9ppl +VAT fixed for 6 months and then capped at 5p increases at the most in any 6 month period.

Speaking with a local supplier, they told me they couldn't even buy it bulk (10ton a time) for 41.9ppl

Avantigas seem to be the cheapest out there at the moment

I have both thenm and jgas (46ppl) coming for a survey and then I'll make my decision

Lumphammer1

I am in Worcestershire and use independent Callow and am out of contract. I have found that it is best before I need a delivery to phone round alternative suppliers to see what they would offer a new customer. Then contact Callow and request a similar or better price. I am currently on 45p.

The Malvern scheme looks interesting and I looked at the ANSI document, but where in all that info is the relevant ppl figure and what is the mark-up which would be applied on top?

LittleVermin

"To arrive by November 1st"

Email Tom Heideman [EMAIL="Tom.Heideman&#64;oft.gsi.gov.uk"]Tom.Heideman@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]

Here's the stuff from the Office of Fair Trading website (here):

Completed acquisition by Flogas UK Limited (part of DCC) of BP's LPG distribution business in Great Britain - issued 19 October 2012
The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this acquisition has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.
Affected sector: LPG distribution

Info/comment:
1. the market is highly concentrated (the Competition Commission report said so!).
2. Calor has about 50% of the market, Flogas (before latest acquisition) about 20%, BP (now MacGas) about 10%, AvantiGas about 10% .... and the ?forty or so independents about 10-11%.
3. So now Calor has about 50% and Flogas about 30%.
4. In some areas - e.g. Midlands - there are many independents so that a supplier search by postcode on the UKLPG website may turn up 8, 9, 10 .. potential suppliers. And as we have seen on the forum users can haggle to get a decent price.
5. But in many areas a postcode search for potential suppliers just yields the 4 - or now 3 - majors.
6. This seems to go against the action, as well as spirit, of the CC report into the Domestic Bulk LPG supply.

Please send a short email to Tom Heideman if you haven't already done so.

...footnote: DCC (which owns Flogas) also supplies heating oil in the UK and has a policy of growing by acquisition (it's in their annual report) - and has bought many independent heating oil suppliers. These companies usually continue to trade under their original names - so customers believe there is more competition than really exists.
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frankie

e-mail rant duly sent!!

Can I too implore New and 'old' forum contributors, to please respond to Little Vermins post by winging off an e-mail.

HateLPG

frankie wrote: »

e-mail rant duly sent!!

Can I too implore New and 'old' forum contributors, to please respond to Little Vermins post by winging off an e-mail.

Rants being all well and good (and extremely cathartic ) the OFT are more likely to take into account a well argued case (see LV's post for some good ideas). So if you are thinking of firing off an email to the OFT, don't forget to make a calm and considered case based on fact while you're letting off steam

Macadamia

Good evening!
Can anyone tell me what job Tom Heideman does at the OFT?
(all the better to craft my email.....)

We don't want to see anything that lessens competition do we?

LittleVermin

Macadamia wrote: »

Good evening!
Can anyone tell me what job Tom Heideman does at the OFT?
(all the better to craft my email.....)...

on his reply to my short email:

[FONT=&quot]Tom Heideman[/FONT][FONT=&quot]| Principal Case Officer | Mergers | Office of Fair Trading[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Fleetbank House | 2-6 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8JX | T: 020 7211 8499 | [EMAIL="tom.heideman&#64;oft.gsi.gov.uk"]tom.heideman@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL][/FONT]

The post below may not seem at all relevant:

chubbs85240 wrote: »

Another small update on my situation

I recieved a quote from Avantigas eventually - 41.9ppl +VAT fixed for 6 months and then capped at 5p increases at the most in any 6 month period.

Speaking with a local supplier, they told me they couldn't even buy it bulk (10ton a time) for 41.9ppl

Avantigas seem to be the cheapest out there at the moment

I have both thenm and jgas (46ppl) coming for a survey and then I'll make my decision

BUT

there are many posts quoting independents who said they couldn't match the majors' initial offers.

So AvantiGas - 41.9ppl for next 6 months, then 46.9ppl for next 6 months, then 51.9ppl for next 6 months then 56.9ppl for months 18-24 of the 2 yr contract. Scary story for Halloween? Well, there are several posts which report company x only ever had price rises. x includes Flogas, Calor, and Countrywide. In 19 yrs with BP I only had ONE price reduction (but, hey, that's better than only price rises!). Apart from the (maximum) price rises written into the 'simple' agreement you will probably find that the contract includes a clause that the company can go beyond the agreed maximum rise if the wholesale price (based on Platts/ANSI) increases by x% and the supplier gives you proof of this. [most of us, I suspect, would have no problem with a clause about a rise in the wholesale cost of LPG]

Speaking with a local supplier, they told me they couldn't even buy it bulk (10ton a time) for 41.9ppl

So if Flogas is allowed to keep BP's LPG business it will have even more power to offer wonderful introductory deals - low initial price, cash sweetener, etc - safe in the knowledge it can come out OK over the whole 2 yr contract.

The companies told the Competition Commission that they thought the domestic LPG market was declining - with losses to heating oil. The only growth was in estates in rural locations (and barn conversions!). So Calor said it grew by having tie-ups with developers and builders. Once a supplier has a metered estate it takes 2 yrs for the people on the estate to switch (assuming they ALL want to). Metered estates are cash-cows (with Llwyd paying Flogas 70.38ppl on his/her estate .... when Flogas has very low delivery costs to fill the one or two communal tanks in one drop from a tanker).

Please send the man an email!

[EMAIL="tom.heideman&#64;oft.gsi.gov.uk"]tom.heideman@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]
..

Macadamia

Thank you to all contributors!

I have sent my email.

I have also copied it to my MP. I think this is worth doing because of the current national debate about the fuel price rises affecting those on the grid. We should do what we can to make sure oil and LPG users don't get overlooked.

So send the man an email....as Little Vermin says. And send that email to your MP.