TV Licence article Discussion

George_Bray

54druids wrote: »

My 82 year old mother has just moved in with us for 3 months or more depending on how long it takes her new place to become habitable. She still has her other house but it is lying empty. Can we claim her tv licence discount for our home?

I don't think you can claim the 100% discount (effectively) for your home because it's your home and not your Mother's. TV Licensing say:

"Your free over 75 TV Licence only covers your main home address. You’ll need to buy a separate TV Licence for any other properties. For more information, see Second homes."

HiroProtagonist

Sorry for not replying sooner - I've just tried to cancel my tv licence, and claim a refund, and the attitude of the staff member at tv licencing has quite fankly, annoyed the living hell out of me!

I phoned up, and explained that I wanted a refund - that I'd completed the form, but wasn't sure as to what evidence was required. The person I spoke to - Adrian, told me that they needed "proof you no longer have a tv installed at the property".

I then explained that while I do have a tv at the property, It's not "installed" - i.e., it isn't hooked upto the ariel, or a STB, and the built-in tuner, isn't tuned in.

His response was that, unless I can supply evidence that there isn't a tv at the property - I can't claim a refund! I then asked what would happen if I simply let my tv licence expire, and was told at that point, that I would be investigated by TV Licencing!

To say I'm angry, is an understatement at the moment. His attitude was incredibly disrespectful - referring me to Part 4 of the 2003 Communications act, and telling me that "Installation" basically equates to buying a tv - i.e., if you purchase a tv, you've installed it, and thus require a tv licence!

When I've calmed down somewhat, I plan on emailing enquiries@tvlicencing.co.uk (cc:Watchdog) and complaining about this.

George_Bray

HiroProtagonist wrote: »

I phoned up, and explained that I wanted a refund - that I'd completed the form, but wasn't sure as to what evidence was required. The person I spoke to - Adrian, told me that they needed "proof you no longer have a tv installed at the property".

Perhaps they took advantage of your unsure stance. All the information on where you stand and what you need to do is here on this thread. TELL them what you're going to do. Don't ask and/or sound unsure. As it was, they've fobbed you off with duff information by the sound of it. Your situation doesn't sound much different to mine, and TV Licensing couldn't have been more helpful in response to my notification regarding what I wanted and intended to do.

HiroProtagonist

George_Bray wrote: »

Perhaps they took advantage of your unsure stance. All the information on where you stand and what you need to do is here on this thread. TELL them what you're going to do. Don't ask and/or sound unsure. As it was, they've fobbed you off with duff information by the sound of it. Your situation doesn't sound much different to mine, and TV Licensing couldn't have been more helpful in response to my notification regarding what I wanted and intended to do.

While I was typing my lunch I typed up an email to send to them - not sure if I should post it or not, as it's a wee-bit on the long side (to say the least).

Actually - I'll go ahead and copy it here - if it's too long, I can always go back and edit it out.

Here's what I sent them:

Head of Customer Relations,
Customer Relations Department,
TV Licensing,
Bristol,
BS98 1TL.


September 8th 2010.

Dear Sir / Madam,


Re: TV Licence Fee Refund & Customer Service complaint.


First allow me to provide you with background information before outlining my complaint. I've lived in my current property for over 5 years, and have held a valid TV licence during this time - As of the time of writing this letter, I currently hold a valid TV licence, that expires on April 30th 2011.


However, over the course of the last year, I've watched less, and less TV. What little TV I do watch, I noticed was being watched, via the BBCs iPlayer Service. With this in mind, I gave the issue of cancelling my TV licence, disconnecting my TV from the aerial / STB (Set Top Box), and moving my TV viewing exclusively to iPlayer - via the catchup service, a great deal of thought, and consideration.


Eventually I decided to disconnect my TV from the aerial, and switch to watching what little TV I consume, via the BBCs iPlayer catch-up service - I have been doing this for the last three months, and now intend to cancel my TV licence, as I am no longer in a position where I can watch or record, live TV broadcasts - my TV is disconnected from the aerial, and I only use iPlayer to watch TV content after (the emphasis, I feel is important) they have been broadcast.


My original intention was simply to allow my current TV licence to run it's course, and then simply not renew the licence, when it expires in April 2011. However, reading through the TV Licensing website, it states that I can apply for a refund on "Unused Quarters" - i.e. three month blocks where I'm not using a licence.


With this in mind, I completed the required form online, dated it from September 6th (despite having not watched, nor recorded live TV broadcasts for a period of time before this - I decided to declare the "cut off" point as the day I completed the application form) with the intention of, hopefully claiming two "quarters" - i.e. approximately a six month refund, or an amount in the region of £67.


It's perhaps also worth noting, at this point that the "Television", I previously watched live broadcasts on, can either be used as television, or a computer monitor (it's a Samsung 2333HD, if you wish to confirm that). On the Samsung website it's classified primarily as a monitor - indeed when I brought it, It was purchased from a computer store.



It was purchased primarily as a monitor, however due to the included TV tuner, I opted at the time, to connect it to an outside aerial, to receive live broadcasts. As detailed above, it has since been disconnected from an aerial, though I still continue to use it for the primary reason that it was purchased - a computer monitor.


With that in mind, having completed the refund form, and downloaded / printed a copy, I noticed the form requires evidence - specifically:

"Please provide a brief explanation in the ‘Reason/Comments’ box
AND attach the ORIGINAL LICENCE and A PHOTOCOPY OF ONE
PIECE OF EVIDENCE* to support the date from which you say you
no longer needed the licence from. Examples of acceptable evidence
include: a final utility bill, a tenancy agreement, confirmation of
college terms, a bill of sale or receipt or a solicitor’s letter.
Please DO NOT send originals of evidence, as we are unable to
return them."

As you can perhaps appreciate - in my situation, the "Examples of acceptable evidence" don't really apply. I haven't physically moved address / moved into student halls, which would appear to be the relevant circumstances in which the evidence your organisation deems "acceptable" would apply - I have simply exercised my right to choose not to receive live television broadcasts, or use equipment in such a manner as to facilitate such activities.


With this in mind, I contacted your organisations enquires phone line this morning - which brings me to the issue of the complaint I wish to lodge.


Having navigated my way through the Automated System, I was eventually connected to a Customer Service Agent called B]Removed - Though stated in letter / email[/B. At this point I informed that I wished to apply for a refund on my TV licence - I informed him that I had downloaded and completed the refund form, but I was unsure as to what would be deemed "acceptable evidence".


After being asked to explain why I believed I would be able to obtain a refund, I was told that I still needed a TV licence "Unless you've sold the TV, and can provide us with a receipt". At this point I explained that I hadn't sold the TV - I'd simply disconnected it from the Aerial - thus removing the ability to receive (and record - though I don't own any recording equipment) live programming. [Name] replied that this wasn't deemed as appropriate for receiving a refund as, and I quote "You still have a TV installed at the property".


At this point in the conversation, I replied that in my opinion [Name] was implying that you need a TV licence simply to own a TV, which clearly isn't the case. At this point in the conversation I was told that you DO need a TV licence to own a TV - and that this is covered by Part 4 of the 2003 Communications Act.


[Name] quoted the following, from said Act, over the phone:

"It also makes it an offence for anyone to have any television receiver in their possession or under their control who intends to install or use it."

At this point, I asked what would happen if I simply allowed my licence to expire, kept my TV disconnected from the aerial, and only used iPlayer to catch-up on programmes that had already been broadcast.


The response was that TV licensing would, if I didn't renew my licence, open an investigation, and if it was deemed I was using my TV without a licence, take legal action, as I would be breaking the law.


In short - my perception is that a customer service operative of your organisation effectively told me that if I continued to act in the manner that I am, that I would be breaking the law - the implication being, that I'm a criminal.


First, allow me to say that I do not, appreciate being accused of breaking the law - either in the course of my day to day actions, or at some future point. To say that this implication offended me is, to be blunt, a significant understatement. As someone who has always, always, held a valid TV licence, I consider such an implication to be beyond reprehensible, hence my reason for making a complaint.


Secondly - I also wish to make an additional complaint, as I firmly believe the information [Name] supplied is at best, wrong, at worst fraudulent. Firstly the 2003 Communications Act that I was quoted over the phone, actually states and this is from the TV Licensing website () (Emphasis added by myself)

"Part 4 of the Communications Act 2003 makes it an offence to install or use a television receiver to watch or record any television programmes as they're being shown on television without a valid TV Licence. The Act empowers the BBC to make and amend the terms and conditions of a licence. It allows the government to make regulations to exempt or reduce the licence fee for certain persons in certain circumstances. It also makes it an offence for anyone to have any television receiver in their possession or under their control who intends to install or use it in contravention of the main offence (above), or knows, or has reasonable grounds for believing, that another person intends to install or use a television receiver in contravention of the main offence."

From my perspective, there are two significant points in that paragraph. Firstly "...to watch or record any television programmes as they're being shown on television without a valid TV licence". This would indicate to me, that you are free to own a Television set, provided it isn't being used to "...watch or record any television programmes..."


Secondly - I would like to take the opportunity to emphasise the part that [Name] quoted over the phone - particularly the part that was omitted - which again I have emphasised as I believe it to be significant - "It also makes it an offence for anyone to have any television receiver in their possession or under their control who intends to install or use it in contravention of the main offence (above)..."


Again, from my perspective, when you read the part that was (I would like to assume accidentally) omitted during the conversation with your operative, this would again back up my first point - that you are in compliance with this act, provided you don't operate the equipment in such a way that you can watch live television programmes.


By my understanding, physically removing the aerial from my television, and detuning the receiver, should cover this.


As noted earlier - the "Television" set I'm referring to, can be used either as a computer monitor, or a Television. I currently use this equipment, primarily as a computer monitor, though it does also have a blu-ray player (not recorder) attached to it - as noted above, with regards to Part 4 of the 2003 Communications Act, I believe that I am within my legal rights to use this equipment - either with a TV licence, or without one.


I would also like to bring to your attention the following "Tweets" from @tvlicencing - which I presume is an official source:


@chickenruby. Spotted your tweet y'day. Wanted to let you know you only need a licence to watch "live" TV via iPlayer. See [Link]
[]


Hi @Danni_34. Spotted your tweet. Wanted to let you know you only need a TV Licence to watch "live" progs via iPlayer. See: [Link]
[]


@oliviakateslack. You only need a licence to watch progs as they're shown on TV (live), not for on-demand content on iPlayer: [Link]
[]


@oraculusinfo. Saw tweet RE: TV Licence. You don't need a licence to play games/DVDs on a TV, just to watch "live" progs: [Link]
[]


Those last two "tweets" in particular seem to suggest quite clearly, that you don't need a TV licence to own a TV / Blu-Ray Player / DVD Player, or to access iPlayer, provided you aren't using the equipment to receive, or record, live transmissions, which I'm not.


At this point, I'd like the address the second part of how I use this electrical equipment -Catching up on the occasional TV programme, via the BBC iPlayer service.


I am aware that if you wish to view "live" streams on iPlayer - that is if you wish to view programmes as they're being aired, that you need a TV licence. With this in mind, I don't access live streams via iPlayer - I only use iPlayer to catchup with TV programmes - for example, I'll download Dragons Den on Tuesday - the day after it's "broadcast" / "live-streamed".


It is my understanding, that I can do this without a TV licence. This is based on the following sources:


Source #1 -> BBC iPlayer - Help Page:
[Link removed - Forum won't allow me to post with links.]

Section 3 - How You Can Use BBC iPlayer and BBC Content.

3.2 - How you may NOT use BBC iPlayer.

3.2.2 If you do not have a valid television licence


You may not watch television programmes using BBC iPlayer on any device (including mobile phones, laptops and personal computers) at the same time (or virtually the same time) as the programmes are being broadcast, simulcast or otherwise made available to members of the public on television unless you have a valid television licence. For more information on this requirement please see Do I need a TV licence to watch programmes on BBC iPlayer? or you can contact TV Licensing by calling 0870 241 5590 or by visiting

[Link removed - Forum won't allow me to post with links.]


Source #2 -> BBC iPlayer - Help - Playing TV Programmes - Frequently Asked Questions.

[Link removed - Forum won't allow me to post with links.]

Catch-up

You do not need a television licence to catch-up on television programmes in BBC iPlayer, only when you watch or record at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is being broadcast or otherwise distributed to the public. In BBC iPlayer, this is through the Watch Live simulcast option.


Anyone in the UK watching or recording television as it's being broadcast or simulcast on any device - including mobiles, laptops and PCs - must, by law, be covered by a valid TV licence.

A 'live' TV programme is a programme, which is watched or recorded at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is being broadcast or otherwise distributed to members of the public. As a general rule, if a person is watching a programme on a computer or other device at the same time as it is being shown on TV then the programme is 'live'. This is sometimes known as simulcasting.


The majority of UK households will already be covered by an existing television licence for their main TV set.

What will happen if I don't have a TV licence?
It is a criminal offence to watch 'live' television without a TV licence or to posses or control a device which you know or reasonably believe will be used to watch 'live' TV without a TV licence. You could be prosecuted and fined up to £1000 (plus be ordered to pay legal costs) for these offences.

---

Having taken the above noted details into consideration (and I appreciate this is a somewhat long letter / email), can you please confirm that my position is correct - that, to put it simply, as I've disconnected my TV / Monitor, from an aerial, de-tuned it, so that it can't receive transmissions, and only use iPlayer to view content AFTER they've been broadcast - typically the following day, that I currently don't need a TV licence, and thus can apply for a refund, and, assuming I'm successful, and my TV licence is revoked, I can continue to utilise my equipment in the way noted above, without fear of prosecution from yourselves?


Many Thanks,

HiroProtagonist

Unfortunately, the forum won't allow me to post links in my posts, so I've had to strip quite a lot of content out - basically the links mostly referred to pages either on the TV Licensing website, or the BBC iPlayer website. The tweets all point to links on Twitter, from the tvlicencing account.

George_Bray

HiroProtagonist wrote: »

Unfortunately, the forum won't allow me to post links in my posts, so I've had to strip quite a lot of content out - basically the links mostly referred to pages either on the TV Licensing website, or the BBC iPlayer website. The tweets all point to links on Twitter, from the tvlicencing account.

Hiro - I really don't think it's necessary or desirable to send them such a long letter. A complaint, as such, will just bounce off them and - who knows - you could be flagged as a trouble maker.

This is what I did:

1. Phone or email them to confirm the quarter end date. Keep the conversation simple. Don't ask other questions or get into a debate.

2. Fill in the refund/cancellation form giving simple reasons like I did, e.g. I no longer want to watch live TV. I prefer DVDs and I can also watch 'catch up' TV on the internet several days later. All facilities for receiving or recording live TV will be disconnected and/or removed as you can verify when you call. I may watch live TV up to the quarter ending (date). Please issue a refund for the remaining quarter(s).

ozzy12

testing testing

ozzy12

Can anyone offer me some advice please? I am thinking of getting a TV for the first time, and I'll need to buy a license. I have tried using the TVL website, but they seem to want 5 monthly payments of £29.10 (total £145.50) between now and the end of the year. Next year they want 12 monthly payments from January of £12.12 (total £145.50) Do I have to pay for the whole of 2010, even though I have not have had a TV for most of this year?

mjm3346

ozzy12 wrote: »

Do I have to pay for the whole of 2010, even though I have not have had a TV for most of this year?

You are not paying for the whole of 2010, your licence will be valid for a year from when you take it out and you will have paid for it within in the first 6 months after that you are paying for the next licence, 6 months before it starts and 6 months after.
If you pay annually then you pay it all in advance.

blizeH

Bit of a long shot, but maybe worth asking anyway - I've got a TV license for my house which AFAIK covers me to watch stuff on my laptop, iPhone etc too.

If I took my laptop to my girlfriend's uni halls and wanted to watch some TV there, would it be covered or not?