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Almay, Amivo, IBS what are they about?

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  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    BFG wrote:
    Again, straight forn the Scamway book of indoctrination...

    ..compare it to a proper business model (franchising) to give it a veneer of respectability.

    ....claim that 'big business' was frightened and tried to get it banned

    ....explain how it's 'different to anything the world has ever seen before' and 'not understood by the masses' - coz Jo Schmo is stupid, yeah right.

    Next you'll be claiming the media (eg NBC in America) are out to get you 'to protect the advertising revenue they get from the big businesses that see Scamways £10 a box washing powder as a threat to their £3 a box washing powder'.............oh sorry, I forgot the Scamway stuff has magical powers and the other stuff is killing our grannies (or is that the vits/water/frying pan)

    Simple question for you - How much is a box of your powder???

    I am not comparing it to Franchising, although there are many similarities. Franchising was once new and mis-understood. Fact. It was pursued through the courts and claims made that it was illegal. Fact. Many peoplpe have and still do loose vast somes of money in failed and ill thought out Franchises. If 7you speak to any legitimate business opinion former they will vouch to the respetibilty of Network Marketing. You might not like it but that is tough. I don't like the banking or insurance industry but that is tough for me.

    Proctor and Gamble have relentlessly pursued Amway for all manner of outrageous lies and rumours and in every case they have had their claims thrown out all across america. That is not libellous in any way as the court transcripts are available.

    explain how it's 'different to anything the world has ever seen before' and 'not understood by the masses' - coz Jo Schmo is stupid, yeah right.

    Well in 1959 Network Marketing was invented by Amway. So you're right it is not new. Different because you can get paid for promoting products that the stores and the advertisers used to get paid for. That is different and that is why conventional businesses do not like it.

    Not understood by the masses. Well that can go for most things really but that is why people only look at the price and not what that price means. I don't personally know Jo Schmo so I can't comment on his intelligence. But I didn't understand business before I got involved with IBS but now I can read and understand financial reports and evaluate businesses for myself.

    Do you think that NBC or any other news network presents a totally balanced and unbiased view of the world? Would any company broadcast anything that would damage any of its revenue streams? I saw that NBC expose and, if I hadn't attended a major function before, would have agreed with you. People can go over the top at these events. They are exciting and motivating. You know what I even saw a guy jump up and cheer at a function in the UK, can you believe that. We did throw him out though. Can't be doing with those fanatics.

    Have you ever seen 60,000 people jump up and chant enthusiastically before?
    I have.
    At Old Trafford whem Manchester United kicked a leather encased bag of air into an oversized fishing net.
    Maybe NBC should run an expose on the scam and cult of English Soccer!

    See my other post for how much the soap powder costs
  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    BFG wrote:
    You're right, a lot of people have ...inc this bloke in the states...he shows that comparing like with like Scamway powder is more expensive (40 odd percent IIRC)


    AMway Claim: The SA-8 laundry detergent is cheaper to use. It's concentrated!
    Truth: I did a price study, and found that the SA-8 is only cheaper to use against the small boxes of Tide, purchased in a supermarket. One 9.9 lb. box of SA-8 is equal to 150 loads, and at distributor price is $25.56 (includes 4% shipping). If you use only one scoop per load (two scoop are recommended for hard water), the price per load is $.171. The table below, shows the "Power of Buying Large Sizes" at Wal-Mart. Sure, if you are stupid enough to buy the 10 load box at Publix grocery store for almost $.32 per load, then you can save money with SA-8 at $.171 per load. Buying Tide at Publix is almost 87% more expensive than the SA-8.
    If you really want to save money, buy the 23-lb pack at Wal-Mart for $.119 per load and save 43.4% over the SA-8. Even with the smaller 5.75 lb box at Wal-Mart, you can still save 10.7% over the SA-8, and you don't have to buy as many loads as the SA8 gives. If you buy the USA Detergents brand liquid, you can get down to $.093/load, or a savings of 45% over the SA8. Anyone who thinks they can retail SA-8 will be hopelessly uncompetitive at $.206 per load (no shipping included).
    In addition, the retail mark up is only 20.7% (16.7% if the distributor absorbs the 4% shipping). The markup is just 2/3 of their widely touted 30% "immediate profit", and this is one of the famous Amway core products! (these prices may not be up to date and are for illustration only)

    Quote from someone who fell for the 'conversion presentation' : "We have been purchasing core products (Amway). We were lead to believe (again lied to) that these products were competitive with retailers, plus receive a discount up to 30% - plus you got paid (3% back based on obtaining100 pv)". Site visitor

    1. Then why does it sell in the hundreds of millions of dollars every year?

    When I first joined Amway I compared everything to what I was using. I wanted to be a satisfied customer before I recommended anything to anyone. 12 years later, here I am still being a satisfied customer and recommending to everyone.

    2. Some mark ups are low some are high. On average across the spectrum 30%.

    How much cash back do you get from your supermarket for doing the equivalent of 100PV? (In the UK 3% is 200PV)
    If you recommend a special offer to your friend at Wal Mart do they give you a bonus? Is that scamming your friend?

    Over here we have SKY satellite tv. They offered a referral fee if you "conned" your mates into taking out a sky subscription. Sky have a virtual monopoly on decent viewing over here.
  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    Anthillmob wrote:
    and a pot and pan set costing £500 when you can buy the same for about £60 in argos.

    You can't get the same in Argos for one.
    two. They are a professional grade product so please compare to other professional quality makes.
    three. Guarenteed for life.

    I had a set from Argos once. The handles fell off and the lids came apart. Couldn't get my money back as they were over a year old. Really old that. Well that was £110 down the drain for three sauce pans and a frying pan.

    I met a couple once who had had there cookware set since 1973 and it had been used every day and still looked like new.
  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    Anthillmob wrote:
    examples

    7 piece starter set of pots and pans using a currency converter this will set you back £389.09

    washing powder using the cc this will set you back £41.11

    :rotfl: if you spend more than £5 on washing powder you are a fool!

    The basic set retails for £309 aproximately. IBO cost is lower. Contact Amway for exact figures but there is a provable profit on this price. Follow Anthillmob's url for the contents.

    I can't find any soap powder in my price list for £41.11. We do have a 4.5kg box for approximately £29 but this is twice the size of the one I replace every 3 months so I guess it would last for 6 months? is £30 alot every 6 months? doesn't seem like a lot to me
  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    Anthillmob wrote:
    examples

    7 piece starter set of pots and pans using a currency converter this will set you back £389.09

    washing powder using the cc this will set you back £41.11

    :rotfl: if you spend more than £5 on washing powder you are a fool!

    Sorry you mentioned price there. Is that £5 per week on soap powder? I spend about £1 to £1.50 per week so I guess I am not the fool then!
  • BFG_2
    BFG_2 Posts: 2,022 Forumite
    BMS Guy

    You're doing a great job of defending Amway, so here are a few questions for you......

    1. Do Amway still do the Tools selling (albeit at arms length)??

    2. What is the retention level of recruits - eg do 25% last longer than 6 months?

    3. Have you worked out an average hourly return for someone without a downstream??

    4. If Amway etc are so brilliant, just why do they have such amazingly negative publicity...is it just the conspiracy by the 'big industrials' or what?? Why do so many people recount horror tales? Why do so many people feel scammed?? As I said the majority of unhappy people are ex-IBOs not end consumers.
  • BMSGuy
    BMSGuy Posts: 68 Forumite
    BFG wrote:
    BMS Guy

    You're doing a great job of defending Amway, so here are a few questions for you......

    1. Do Amway still do the Tools selling (albeit at arms length)??

    2. What is the retention level of recruits - eg do 25% last longer than 6 months?

    3. Have you worked out an average hourly return for someone without a downstream??

    4. If Amway etc are so brilliant, just why do they have such amazingly negative publicity...is it just the conspiracy by the 'big industrials' or what?? Why do so many people recount horror tales? Why do so many people feel scammed?? As I said the majority of unhappy people are ex-IBOs not end consumers.

    Amway Do not and never have sold "tools"
    IBO teams develop training and education systems for the benefit of their teams.
    These are optional, you do not need to subscribe to them to be in the Amway Business.
    Tell me you success system and demonstrate the success of it before you criticise ours.

    What is the success rate of new comers in any business? A very large business bank in the UK quote that 80% of all start up businesses will be out of business within 5 years. The difference is with Amway that you can start for under £200 (if you purchase the maximum starter kit) £28 to register that is all. Now if you can't be bothered then it is easy to say it only cost £28 so I will quit. It is also easy to say "only £28, what have I got to lose?" when you are not serious about running a business.

    What is the average hourly return of someone outside of the Amway business who sits on their bum and does nothing?
    Let's say that you do your 200PV in self use. This is quite easy really if you know the products and convert over to the Amway Coreline. We will have to differ on the economy.
    Your Monthly shop then will take approximately 10 minutes to order.
    For that you will receive a 3% bonus which equates to approximately £5.
    £5 for 10 minutes of shopping.
    That is £30 per Hour.

    Let's say that you invest some time and recruit 1 person who recruits 1 person. That is a downline who has a downline. Duplication remember?

    They do what you do, 200PV in 10 minutes

    You would receive a 6% bonus about £20. Now if that took you 10 hours per week that would be £0.50 per hour. Right?

    What about the next month?

    They are still there so now your 10 minutes is wirth £20 or £120 per hour.

    OK put 40 Hours in again next month. And one of down line puts one extra in and put in 2 again. That is 6 of you in total 6x200 = 1200 9% about £100 bonus £2.50 per hour? again if you left it there your 200PV takes 10 minutes to order so £600 per hour.
    Lets go to the next stage over some time you and your team double in size to 2400PV (12 of you doing 200PV)
    a bonus of about £250 for 40 hours per month that is £6.25 I think per hour.
    If you stay at this level and do nothing then £250 for 10 minutes work. You do the math
    Up to the next level 15% or 4000PV a bonus of approximately £500
    Up to the next level 18% or 7000Pv a bonus of approximately £750.
    Up to the next level 21% or 10000PV a bonus of approximately £1000.

    The negative publicity is from disaffected individuals like you. What ex IBO's complain about? The company, the training system, my upline, I didn't have any toys as a child but never do they say "I just couldn't get it to work" or "I wasn't willing to stick at it" or "I would have rather sat on my bum and watched watchdog".

    All we do is buy stuff and recommend, either the products or the opportunity, if people like that, we either supply product or training. They have to do something. It isn't something for nothing.

    You are asking the wrong question. People get in and out of all situations. The divorce rate is 50% but lots of people get married every year. You will have a fall out rate in any business. The difference is here that the fall off rarely affects your business. The people that quit weren't doing anything anyway.

    Again, low cost entry and no barriers mean that anyone can join. If it cost £10,000 like a small franchise or £100,000 like a shop then it would not attract less serious people. A large investment would "motivate" you to succeed but Amway "costs" you less than a hobby. If you treat it as a hobby then you will not succeed. Treat it like a business and you will.

    We have access at no cost to successful IBO's, our upline, who will come into our business at no extra cost and help us to succeed. Infact it usually costs them money to get you up and running.

    Can I suggest that you read the books by Robert Kiyosaki - The Rich Dad Poor Dad series. They may help you to understand the difference between cost and investment and employee thinking and business owner thinking. From the outside it is difficult to see why we are passionate about the Amway business but once you get past your preconceptions and study the business, its ethics, its philosophies and yes the IBO training systems you will have an insight that will be invaluable. You may still hate it but you will have some very useful knowledge.

    I didn't start my business to sell soap but real life was kicking me in the teeth no matter how hard I tried. However, the skills I learnt through building an Amway business and studying the training materials that I had access to have really made a massive difference. I saw this business and it just seemed to make sense. Reward for persistant effort. Development and new thinking. Team work. Over coming rejection. Dealing with people. Communications skills. Sales skills. These are all really essential to succeed at anything. the total cost over the years is in the region of the daily paper that I used to buy.

    I responded to the earlier post about how much the business cost that guy over 6 years. He never responded so I suppose he must have re-evaluated his position.

    I am trying to understand your position but it keeps changing. Calling the business names and making unfounded accusations isn't really fair is it? I am sure that of the thousand or so views of this post there are some people that agree with you and some that agree with me.

    What I am trying to say is business is business. If this business hurt you in some way then let's grt it sorted. If not then gather some real information not unsubstantiated rumours and examine it in the cold light of day.

    How much money would a car dealer make if he never talked to acustomer in his car lot? or never open the lot or never told anyone he was a car dealer? If you don't speak to people then business will not work but if you do then the world can be your oyster.
  • BFG_2
    BFG_2 Posts: 2,022 Forumite
    Just to summarise BMS Guys posting in response to my 4 questions...and to put my slant on it

    BTW...I'm not going to pick up every mis-truth/deception (not enough space/time)

    Q1. Yes they do sell the 'Motivational Tools' /tapes/etc - it's just they don't call them tools (and FYI Amway did sell 'tools')

    Q2. No answer given on fallout rates - except it'll only cost you £228 to have a go. Lots of crap companies/scammers will happily charge you a lot less for an idea that won't work for you.

    Q3. Hourly rate of £30..only drawback is that a) you have to buy everything from Scamway and they are already way overpriced (see previous postings) and b) it works out at £5 per month...so in that case only 46 months (almost 4 yrs) and you're in profit. I know...how about if I sell you a loaf of bread for £99, BUT give you a refund of £25; it only takes 3 mins to buy it, times 20 per hour equates to £500 per hour income for you..any takers??

    Q4. Following Scamway procedures he says that the reason for so many disaffected people lies with the people that take up the 'opportunity' - and trots out the usual 'didn't work hard enough, whingers, jobsworths' etc (standard Scamway defense part 1). Just remind me again who targets, selects and recruits these 'losers/whingers/deadbeats'...oh I remember, other Scamway guys. If my business recruited and lost people as badly as Scamway I would seriously question our ability to select the right people. Then again if my business model was getting me £200 a pop for giving someone a load of bumpf I wouldn't really care??? Why do Scamways spend so much time trying to recruit others instead of out there selling their over-priced tatt.
  • BFG_2
    BFG_2 Posts: 2,022 Forumite
    BMSGuy wrote:

    2. Infants and people with lowered immune systems are warned against tap water.

    I am not claiming that mains water will kill you but BFG started the ranting on outrageous claims that I never seen in the Amway Literature. END QUOTE

    My response

    UNBELIEVABLE - you claim Scamway don't make outrageous claims, yet only 20 or so words before you do just that!!! Talk about being so indoctrinated that you can't see the truth.
  • Anthillmob
    Anthillmob Posts: 11,780 Forumite
    if amway dont sell tools/tapes etc why did they want 200 notes off me for a sodding flip chart?

    as for £5 a week on washing powder where did i say that?

    id give up mate, youre flogging a dead horse. amway are rip off merchants. none of their products are any different to something i might buy in tesco.

    my 7 piece pan set thing came from a catal.ouge with a lifetime guarantee 4 years ago and they are still going strong. not bad for £80 i think you'll agree.
    There's someone in my head, but it's not me
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