Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

Simelthwate

Scot_39 said:

Simelthwate said:

QrizB said:

The TL contactors are all showing as "on" in this photo; what time was it taken, do you remember?

And is there another time switch somewhere? Possuibly close to the fuse board?

The photo was taken at 7.45pm

I suspect @QRizB was asking about the time for the positions of the grey sliders on the TL 16A modules here - as per your first post - trying to find out if anything is actually switching them based on say economy 7 off peak timing.

Oh, thanks. I will have a look at it at 01.30 tonight and see if the sliders move.

The Electratech does sound like quite the thing. The flat was built in mid-late 90s so the panel was probably pretty modern then. I did some work experience at Norweb offices about 25 years ago so seeing the name on those threads brought back some memories. 

Scot_39 said:

Anyway getting back to the possible control of your NSH - 

"The impulse relays can be manually switched by means of the grey lever protruding from the top
of the unit."

The multi 9s are impulse relays rather than simple contactors / relays - the state toggles on a coil pulse (unlike a normal contactor / relay in common speak - you do not have to hold the current on the coil) - I am beginning to wonder if they are just manually set on. 

(The Schneider replacement certainly talks of remote or manual switching.

https://www.se.com/nl/en/product/A9C30112/impulse-relay-itl-2p-2-no-16a-coil-12-vdc-24-vac-50-60hz/)

So your system kind of gels with that bit of the electrotech users (ex users) description of his set-up too.

Maybe it's just simply time to see what happens if actually switch on one of the NSH - during the day - or during the night ? 

I am beginning to wonder if they are time switched at all.  (Although why anyone would want to be running them at day rate on economy 7 - maybe they werent - and I personally wouldnt want to run around switching heaters on / off every night / morning - when they could be timed - but some others will happily do that).

Note - even if turn the input / control dials down  - to heat from ambient to even low heat mode - they will take quite a few kWh - so you might want to turn it off soon after starts heating if does.  In a quiet room you may hear it before you feel it, theres a fair mass of "brick" to be het.

What happens if do so - again - after sliding those grey levers down in turn.  [Switch as much else in the house off as you reasonably can - they can break live current - but no need to do that to your devices from the CU if easy to avoid - in case we are wrong about them driving the nsh(*) - but we think they are.]

Why (*)  question

Your only labelled as having 3 NSH in the CU handwriting - B1, LR and Hall  - and only have 3 multi9s.

Bedroom 2 is marked as a panel heater - your creda model list reads as if you have in fact 4 storage ?  And the 141 is a 1.7kW - small -> mid sized NSH from posts on it.

So theres no longer a 1:1 mapping of those 3 grey switch multi9 tl 16a modules to NSH.  

I suppose one 16A could feed two small NSH MCBs - but not convinced theres need for a manual relay and a manual MCB in any case.

And given the control of the Creda 51 at least - they seem quite old.

(Hence I suspect QRizB wondering if you ever say those grey switches change from up to down (on to off) - if they double as indicators and manual overrides)

So maybe were looking for something stripped out, modified in stages, maybe many years ago.  Or at least left as alien to most of use here would expect - left without timed automation. 

If theres no other user timers - I am beginning to wonder if the NSH are just purely manual - at the switched spur one assumes next to them - or their thermostat if dont switch - so operate night - and day (screams - what about my bills ??).

Maybe the previous occupant wasnt even on e7, never used the heaters - or if did - did switch them daily - or didnt use the timeshifting - so just used as thermostatically regulated panel heaters.

The issue around the water timer - raises questions about the sync for HW - so perfectly possibly everying was just when they wanted - not what the rates were.

Whilst some E7 are like 15p- 35p see saws - maybe the last occupiers were flatter (or even as above being billed SR - so didn't care).  Your mum would have been given the default for the meter type - as its multirate - that would be economy 7 - not what the previous occupant was using for their actual tariff.

Many aspects of the flat haven't been updated since it was built so the storage heaters could be close to 30 years old. I get the impression from other residents that the previous owner was very elderly and quite wealthy (despite not updating the flat) so, as you say, maybe she turned them on at the wall when she needed them in the day and didn't care about paying high bills. Or maybe she had some other heaters plugged in that she used as and when. 

- I will switch on one of the storage heaters at the wall tomorrow day time and see what happens.
- Thanks for the tip about turning off devices before moving the grey sliders. I have never seen the sliders move while I've been stood there and wouldn't have noticed what position they were in any time I've looked at the CU.
- I will double-check the Creda model number in Bedroom 2

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

I switched off the 1A breaker as suggested but nothing changed on the contactors.

it's possible that the single ones are redundant, and all the switching is now being done by the 4-pole one.

Have you ever seen the black indicators in the "off" position? On the 4-pole contactor, there looks to be a window on the front with an indicator. Has that ever changed colour?

Simelthwate said:

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

Cjhecking the timings. Does it switch on (start getting warm / make the meter IMP light flash faster) at times that align with the RTS, at times that match the Horstmann controller, or at some other set of times?

This is easier to check if the fused spur connections (power switches) at the meters are ones with neon indicators!

I don't know what an electrician charges per day in your area, but once you've got the smart meter it might be worth getting one in to investigate exactly what's going on with your switchgear and do some rationalisation.

I have not noticed what position the indicators are in at any point and I don't believe the window on the 4-pole one has ever been a different colour when I've looked at the board. However, I will keep an eye out over the weekend.

Unfortunately there aren't any lights on the NSH spurs so it's going to a bit of a task to see what's happening at different times of the day/night but I'll do what I can.

Yes, I think an electrician is needed. Will any electrician be able to work out what is going on? Do they need to be specialists in electric heating?

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

Yes, I think an electrician is needed. Will any electrician be able to work out what is going on? Do they need to be specialists in electric heating?

You don't necessarily need a specialist, but yo do want an experienced electrician, someone who's "been there and done that", one with experience that goes beyond ring mains and cooker radials. Ideally someone who's seen an Electratech system before; I don't know how common they are, though.  

You need to explain to them, before agreeing to employ them, that you've got an all-electric flat with storage heaters and Economy 7 but only a single feed from the meter room, with the E7 switching done by contactors in your consumer unit. And that there looks to be two different control systems, one obsolete, that needs unpicking and rationalising.

If you want eg. neon indicators added to your storage heater and immersion heater spurs, they can do that as part of the same job.

Scot_39

To test the main AC driven contactor switch by the Horstman - try reprogramming (you need to anyway now you know the true RTS times) - you dont have to wait until 3am or whatever your sister programmed it to.  And will have to again when new meter fitted in a weeks time.

PS When I said a lot of power - I might have frightened you off on the NSH test - you could literaly be just wait 10/20 mins until the case starts to heat a little - its only going to cost say 40p at SR - even on a large 3.4kW input NS heater for 30 min.  On a smaller unit even less.  (I could tell within 10 min on my 1.7 kW input - and really obvious after 20 - and the heat continued to build a little for 10 min plus after switched it off at 20 - started air ambinet 22.8, rose to 28.5 by 20min and 30 10 min later after stopped charging).

You will definitely need an electrician if going to upgrade the heaters (Id use the supplying contractor for both - but each to their own) you have no meter controlled restricted feed - so you could go single wired (*) - but that would mean modifying CU if currently restricted feed (as above testing ) and will need to set timers - and if go dual wired - to add 24.7 live spur feed for fans and controllers

AFAIK from the NSH devices commonly mentioned here - only top end HHRs like Quantums and Elnur ECombi iirc - support single wired.

But for now all you need is to know whats going to happen in 3-4 months time - possbly sooner in North - when your mum / sister needs heat - so you know whats controlling it.

And a few simply tests at different times - could give you that answer.

And hand heat is an easy test if heaters on and operating.  

If not willing to use the heat tests, 

As no snart and so no apps / IHD - meter imp light - pain as a remote cabinet

I have test kit - and no pets or idle curious fingers to add to risk - so Id maybe loosen an out of the way spur socket for a day or take the outer case cover off if easy (but I'd check on an asbestos check list for those Credas - mines are asbestos free - Ive checked - as did my electrician - before touching the case screws) - and use my meter or non contact pen (sub £10 these days) - but thats because I have them - and used to doing so - in distant past.

If into DIY - maybe buy a live wire detector tool - particularly a multi detector - from local DIY or trade type chain stores or sites likes of amazon / ebay (the multi ones detect other useful to know things like hidden plumbing - to stop DIY "accidents" - to avoid drilling or hammering nails into pipes or cables).  

Simelthwate

Hi. I've not been around has I have been ill and dealing with family problems. The water and heating situation at my mum's has therefore not progressed much unfortunately so I have to get going on getting it updated ASAP

I've seen the new smart meter that has been installed. Hopefully it's the right one. The peak/off-peak rates are  switching over at the expected times so that's an improvement. Needless to say, the meter fitter did not have an easy time putting the new meter in


1. Tariff
One concern I have is that the meter will not be compatible with all E7 tariffs. I say this because the Octopus Snug tariff says:

Can anyone clarify if my mum's meter, which has 4 wires and then a separate thinner wire going into a contactor, would be compatible with this tariff? 


2. Water
Using the IHD I have been able to see how much electricity my mum is using to heat water. She currently has the immersion set to come on for 3.5 hours every other day, which seems to use about 7kWh each time.  On a couple of days it's used about 9kWh for some reason, taking total daily usage to 18.5kWh and 18.8kWh. This really seems a lot.

I wonder if would more efficient to have the water on for 3.5 hours every day, or will this just add about £1/day to the bill with no benefit?

3. Circuits

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

I switched off the 1A breaker as suggested but nothing changed on the contactors.

it's possible that the single ones are redundant, and all the switching is now being done by the 4-pole one.

Have you ever seen the black indicators in the "off" position? On the 4-pole contactor, there looks to be a window on the front with an indicator. Has that ever changed colour?

Simelthwate said:

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

Cjhecking the timings. Does it switch on (start getting warm / make the meter IMP light flash faster) at times that align with the RTS, at times that match the Horstmann controller, or at some other set of times?

This is easier to check if the fused spur connections (power switches) at the meters are ones with neon indicators!

I don't know what an electrician charges per day in your area, but once you've got the smart meter it might be worth getting one in to investigate exactly what's going on with your switchgear and do some rationalisation.

I have established that during the programmed times for the immersion to come on, the window on the 4 pole contactor on the CU goes pink. Does this help in understanding what is going on witht the circuits? We will have to get an electrician in very soon in any case

4. Night storage heaters
I have tested the two biggest NSH (lounge and hall) - with the switches on at the wall, they only seem to come on at the times programmed in the Horstmann i.e. the immersion heater and NSH are both controlled by the Horstmann

This is a big problem I think, because for the NSH to be given the full 7 hours to heat overnight, the immersion heater will also have to be on for the same 7 hours per day even though we don't need it to be. Changing the immersion from 3.5 hours every other day to 7 hours every single day will be a big cost increase. Assuming the immersion heater is working properly (big assumption), it won't actively be charging up for the full 7 hours but it has the potential to increase water heating costs massively.

The lounge and hall NSH seem to use about 5kWh between them so at 15p/kWh this will be about 75p/hour for 7 hours = £5.25/day = £162.75 per month just for 2 storage heaters! Nevermind heating the rest of the rooms, the water or powering lights/appliances/showers. Is this really the case or is my maths wrong?

Thanks

Scot_39

I can kind of see why they did what they did - but the reality is if you wanted meter live ALCS control for a tariff like SNUG - the CU panel and it's auxiliary circuit wiring needed to be changed before the meter - and thats a homeowners / landlords cost - not the suppliers. 

There is another method of external ALCS control - using low amp wiring - that might depending on the signal required for your auxiliary contactor - and so that driving them from the Horstmann - might have been able to replace the Horstman HW timer feed - but you again would have to have that checked out by an electrician and check what the meter might actually provide instead.

So for instance before - the RTS I guess supplied your old Ampy meter rates via the low amp input cable - now terminated on the white Henley block I guess in your recent meter picture to the RHS ) and that switched the meter rates.  The Ampy had no internal timing or ALCS control - it was a straight replacement for an old analogue twin rate meter.

My 4 port smets 1 smart meter with ALCS uses a switched 2A max switched load control contactor to output - to drive - an external contactor (a Proteus ECH1) that then switches the 100A (I say 2A max - because I suspect it draws about 7W on the coil) 

A bit like your Horstmann / HW timer drives your mum's circuits.

But yes - there is no Snug on that meter - as their is no - at least no wired ALCS. (I couldn't find a manual on a quick google)

You would as above have to have had the CU and its switching rewired to provide a restricted feed tail or a suitable point to drive in the same way mine drives my Proteus - from your CU (at owners - or landlords expense) for the meter fitter to fit a proper 5 port meter or a 4 port with auxiliary load control too.

(Assuming that is a 4 port M120 - v2 meter looking at piccies on Kaifa UK site - the 5 port I assume would have a 5th port ring visible at base and I assume labelled M120B)

Edit : And of course given its a flat that would have potentially been difficult to run new cables from meter room to flat / CU.  Which I assume might possibly just be one set of live neutral earth currently.

So yes it will do E7. 

But you'll have to match the exact meter times to use all 7 hours - including the upto 30 min from preset nominal time delay on the meter on the Horstmann timer - and check BST / GMT - the meter often wont change - your timer ?

Flip Side

But its not all bad news - as on the flip side - it's potentially giving more flexibility than even Snug - in potentially allowing you to select other tariff types that might be a bitter fit than conventional E7.

Like other modern TOU tariffs - EOn do one - cannot remember the rates / times 

But as you mentioned Snug, another user elsewhere has confirmed on Octopus Cosy with NSH as couldnt get Snug operating reliable with his meter / signal (but other suppliers large and small do others) which if can avoid heavy use 4-7pm - its lower normal rate - might be a better choice than e7 peak rates 17 hours a day - especially if your mum / sister etc in all day and using power (TVs, cookers etc).

Cosy would give iirc 8 hours - split 3 3 and 2 - with potentially afternoon and evening boosts for heaters set on lower thermostat / input settings if old manual devices - to smooth room temps through the day on older manual heaters.

Edit

Can your timer have 3 active time periods per day to match their cheap times ?

For me Octopus rates would be 

E7 -                           13.93p off peak (say midnight to 7am)                          day 31.24p     inc Cosy peak  31.24p.

                                  7 hrs                                                                              17 hrs

Cosy rates would be 12.29p off peak (4-7am, 1-4pm and 10pm - midnight), day 25.06p and 4-7pm peak 37.59p

                                  8 hrs                                                                                     13 hrs                             3 hrs

So mum/sis could charge and heat hw at slightly lower off peak rate for 1 hr more - if your region similar - maybe take advantage of the afternoon - for any high loads - so say cook lunch or washer /dreyr in the cheap rate early afternoon, generally live most of the day at c6.2p/kWh less expensive than e7 rate - and limit the use if could during the 4-7pm 3 hr peak window when c6.4p/kWh more (say delaying cooking an evening meal or load of washing). And kick in say a plug in / wall panel at cheap rate as go to bed for an hour or so in the 10-midnight slot - before get under that snug duvet for the night.

[You may have popped in to the long saga in the Rosie1001 thread - her afternoon boost loss was the driving concern for her - she got 5+2 on old RTS but 7 flat on E7 - shes jumping to Octopus on their E7 - considering Snug for winter if not year round once knows how her system copes on e7. 

The afternoon and evening boost is why I still pay a c4p / kWh premium for my E10 alcs]

My evening off peak slot on E10 comes in at 8pm in winter - bearable (I used to work 10-12 hrs per day) but 9pm in summer more of a stretch when commuting / working full time - less now - and I often do wait for it to save 12.8p/kWh.

NSH

NSH will only take full charge - perhaps - on maximum settings - input and output would be my guess - but I rarely set mine even above half on my manual input charge control - and that only when sub zero out (*).

So although you can use upto that level - if set lower - like in early autumn / spring - then wind up only as hit winter etc - you will use much less.

And potentially if like me on my e10 and old lossy manual regulated heaters and they were het 3x per day - then like Cosy - you might be able to have them boosted to a lower peak core temp - lower core thermostat  / input setting on mine - than on conventional E7.

[(*) But I run a low temp home - too low for many - and its already creeping up a degree or so with age in last decade - and I am several years from SPA yet.  So 16 in living room with 3 layers my normal winter standard. So electric costs bearable for me. My mum was running the living room at 21+ by time in her mid 70s and losing mobility - I'd visit and be in t-shirt - she'd be layered and sitting under a blanket/fleece throw.]

You say 18 kWh a lot but in cost yes but if compare to say gas, but remember median gas TDCV of 11500 kWh pa - for 2-3 in a 2-3 bed home (a decent modern flat will use less - an old victorian  / granite / sandstone - solid wall with high ceilings - likely more) and a lot of that will be hw and heating - and remember thats on top of the 2700 kWH of electric for everything else - 11500/365 = 31.5 kWh per day - and I suspect for many - that is maybe split - closer to like 10-15 summer / 45-50+ deep winter.

HW on extended times

The HW is going to be thermostat limited - or it would take full power otherwise all the time - and its not - a typical full tank element 3 kW x 3.5 hrs = 10.5 kWh. You have 2 but assume only 1 active as above figures.

You only heat what you use and a bit to compensate for tank losses.

My tank - occasional use - not feeding shower - is on for 10 hrs at the "meter" - no separate timer - and normally only uses 2-3 kWh as doesn't include shower - its a small c120l tank - with own insulation - so maybe at best 1kWh losses at 60C temp from best modern tank specs.

The tank will be hotter - if you heat it daily or if look at say Cosy - 3x per day - so losses will be closer to manufacturers levels on the second as well as first day - but I suspect its not going to be massive in respect to either the 1-2 kWh nominal loss levels - and the 6-9 kWh total including those loses - currently being used.

My tank "losses" arent wasted though - as keep my towels and bedding in the airing cupboard dry and fresh year round - and its often warmer than my hall as I only heat that to 14/15C.  Given yours is in the bathroom - a bit of lost heat to keep stuff on those shelves dry might be no bad thing.

You can always go back to flipping the switch every other day when no heat required.

Simelthwate

@Scot_39
Wow. Thank you for such a detailed response. It's a shame about the meter and Snug but at least some other tariffs will will work. I was getting worried there until I got to your 'flip side' section. 

I have made sure the Horstmann programmed times are well within the off-peak period and have set a reminder to to align them to off-peak again when the clocks change.  

The Cosy tariff sounds like a good idea. I think that my family probably would be able to avoid heavy use during the max rate period so I'll look into this further. The Octopus site says you need a heat pump or an electric boiler to use the tariff though - is an immersion heater classed as an electric boiler? Otherwise will my mum be eligible for the tariff?

I've not seen the Rosie1001 thread but will take a look! 

NSH & HW - thanks you for explaining all this. All good tips.

One last question: I have the below boiler in the all-electric flat that I rent. I am on an E7 tariff and heat it only at night. It has a boost button which I've never used. My flat has 'normal' radiators with water in that you would see in a gas-powered home, and I have a non-electric shower too. In summer (no heating) it costs very little to heat the water. If I don't have a shower for some reason, and only use hot water for the sinks, the total overnight spend on electricity seems to be about 70p/night. This is obviously significantly cheaper than my mum's immersion heater. Even with showering the cost is well below what mum pays for immersion & electric shower costs.

So, would it be possible or beneficial for my mum to have a boiler like this, just for the hot water? I assume there's some catch otherwise many people would have them instead of an immersion heater

 

Scot_39

Sorry.  Didn't mean to depress you.  But you seemed upset about Snug, so thought id try to explain why not an option.

Maybe I'll start with flip side positives next time.

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

NSH & HW - thanks you for explaining all this. All good tips.
One last question: I have the below boiler in the all-electric flat that I rent. 

That's wet electric heating with an integral unvented tank (boiler info here), which means (if you have a suitable smart meter) you qualify for Cosy Octopus, which is very nearly Economy 10:

https://octopus.energy/smart/cosy-octopus/

Simelthwate said:

One last question: I have the below boiler in the all-electric flat that I rent....
So, would it be possible or beneficial for my mum to have a boiler like this, just for the hot water?  

I don't think it would offer your mum anything that she doesn't already get from a HW tank plus immersion heater.
From the photo you shared earlier in this thread (link) it looks to have sprayed foam insulation, which means it's unlikely to be leaking a huge amount of heat; possibly she could improve the efficiency by fitting a new, better-insulated tank (& by lagging some of the exposed pipework) but that's unlikely to save more than 20-30p a day, which means it'll take a long while to recover the £800-1k cost of a replacement tank.

Scot_39

The Heatrae is an electric boiler and a HW tank - 180l capacity - combo.

The tank has 2 3kW elements - one notionally off peak - one peak wired for boost - and the boiler its own upto 45A protected supply - similar to a shower given its upto 9kW rating.

The tank might be a little bit better insulated - but losses probably arent that significantly different for a similar sized foam insulated ( I grew up with tanks that had external jackets that were tied around copper ? bodies).   Its the ratio of losses to casual use thats a bit of a pain for a tank that doesn't also feed the shower - rather than any absolute cost.  And an electric shower avoids a lot of the pipe losses - so it's swings and roundabouts.

I've scanned the user manual - and for the standalone boiler - 6-9kW linear heat exchanger by the looks of things - am I right the HW for radiators is just a live on demand heating element.

AS it states for the Danfos thermostat section

"These settings should, wherever
possible, take advantage of any day time
“Off-Peak” electricity supply periods. It
can be programmed to give 6 time and
temperature events each day"

Its a classic catch 22 - you look to need meter ALCS switched load for the off peak HW - but then have no independent control for the radiator energy costs (you have for times) at low rate on modern single block E7.

Unless your driving the the nominal offpeak water element via a timer on a non restricted supply.  Which looks like you have one - 16A spur type by looks of it - with only 2 pins from 4 - in the top RHS of your pictures adjascent to the Heatrea label on the heater and the hinge on the door.

And if everything is then controlled by that timeswitch and the danfos - or alt programmer for heating - then maybe you too aren't using E7 ALCS - just E7 tariff timings - and so could take advantage of the TOU like Cosy.

As it says in the manual - it's really designed for E10 - with typically 2 daytime - in case of my old school E10 - thats afternoon and evening in my case - in modern TOu case - afternoon and late evening on Cosy - not simple block E7.

Cosy's 8 hours split 3 times a day - or an alternative rate / timing from another supplier - is about as close as you are likely to get to E10 with many suppliers.

So is that timer switch for your main HW element - and as looks electromechanical - I assume 24/7 live input - to cut down from say heating the full 7 hours on your E7 and possibly E10 before a meter upgrade.

Edit and re your mum - re Cosy - althought it says ASHP / electric boiler - as you kind of have - if interested - phone them and explain - they have let another user with NSH onto Cosy - there's a post from @vienna28 in one of the Rosie or Snig threads iirc with a link - as their meter wouldn't support dynamic ALCS switched NSH properly.  Its just another user not meter ALCS time controlled form of heating in your mums case.

EDit 2 - Of course Csy is a hlaf hour billed odern TOU tariff - not register based - so you will need a working smart meter - your mum now has one - but is it communicating readings to supplier.  Do you at your place?