Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

Simelthwate

Scot_39 said:

Simelthwate said:

QrizB said:

The TL contactors are all showing as "on" in this photo; what time was it taken, do you remember?

And is there another time switch somewhere? Possuibly close to the fuse board?

The photo was taken at 7.45pm

I suspect @QRizB was asking about the time for the positions of the grey sliders on the TL 16A modules here - as per your first post - trying to find out if anything is actually switching them based on say economy 7 off peak timing.

Oh, thanks. I will have a look at it at 01.30 tonight and see if the sliders move.

The Electratech does sound like quite the thing. The flat was built in mid-late 90s so the panel was probably pretty modern then. I did some work experience at Norweb offices about 25 years ago so seeing the name on those threads brought back some memories. 

Scot_39 said:

Anyway getting back to the possible control of your NSH - 

"The impulse relays can be manually switched by means of the grey lever protruding from the top
of the unit."

The multi 9s are impulse relays rather than simple contactors / relays - the state toggles on a coil pulse (unlike a normal contactor / relay in common speak - you do not have to hold the current on the coil) - I am beginning to wonder if they are just manually set on. 

(The Schneider replacement certainly talks of remote or manual switching.

https://www.se.com/nl/en/product/A9C30112/impulse-relay-itl-2p-2-no-16a-coil-12-vdc-24-vac-50-60hz/)

So your system kind of gels with that bit of the electrotech users (ex users) description of his set-up too.

Maybe it's just simply time to see what happens if actually switch on one of the NSH - during the day - or during the night ? 

I am beginning to wonder if they are time switched at all.  (Although why anyone would want to be running them at day rate on economy 7 - maybe they werent - and I personally wouldnt want to run around switching heaters on / off every night / morning - when they could be timed - but some others will happily do that).

Note - even if turn the input / control dials down  - to heat from ambient to even low heat mode - they will take quite a few kWh - so you might want to turn it off soon after starts heating if does.  In a quiet room you may hear it before you feel it, theres a fair mass of "brick" to be het.

What happens if do so - again - after sliding those grey levers down in turn.  [Switch as much else in the house off as you reasonably can - they can break live current - but no need to do that to your devices from the CU if easy to avoid - in case we are wrong about them driving the nsh(*) - but we think they are.]

Why (*)  question

Your only labelled as having 3 NSH in the CU handwriting - B1, LR and Hall  - and only have 3 multi9s.

Bedroom 2 is marked as a panel heater - your creda model list reads as if you have in fact 4 storage ?  And the 141 is a 1.7kW - small -> mid sized NSH from posts on it.

So theres no longer a 1:1 mapping of those 3 grey switch multi9 tl 16a modules to NSH.  

I suppose one 16A could feed two small NSH MCBs - but not convinced theres need for a manual relay and a manual MCB in any case.

And given the control of the Creda 51 at least - they seem quite old.

(Hence I suspect QRizB wondering if you ever say those grey switches change from up to down (on to off) - if they double as indicators and manual overrides)

So maybe were looking for something stripped out, modified in stages, maybe many years ago.  Or at least left as alien to most of use here would expect - left without timed automation. 

If theres no other user timers - I am beginning to wonder if the NSH are just purely manual - at the switched spur one assumes next to them - or their thermostat if dont switch - so operate night - and day (screams - what about my bills ??).

Maybe the previous occupant wasnt even on e7, never used the heaters - or if did - did switch them daily - or didnt use the timeshifting - so just used as thermostatically regulated panel heaters.

The issue around the water timer - raises questions about the sync for HW - so perfectly possibly everying was just when they wanted - not what the rates were.

Whilst some E7 are like 15p- 35p see saws - maybe the last occupiers were flatter (or even as above being billed SR - so didn't care).  Your mum would have been given the default for the meter type - as its multirate - that would be economy 7 - not what the previous occupant was using for their actual tariff.

Many aspects of the flat haven't been updated since it was built so the storage heaters could be close to 30 years old. I get the impression from other residents that the previous owner was very elderly and quite wealthy (despite not updating the flat) so, as you say, maybe she turned them on at the wall when she needed them in the day and didn't care about paying high bills. Or maybe she had some other heaters plugged in that she used as and when. 

- I will switch on one of the storage heaters at the wall tomorrow day time and see what happens.
- Thanks for the tip about turning off devices before moving the grey sliders. I have never seen the sliders move while I've been stood there and wouldn't have noticed what position they were in any time I've looked at the CU.
- I will double-check the Creda model number in Bedroom 2

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

I switched off the 1A breaker as suggested but nothing changed on the contactors.

it's possible that the single ones are redundant, and all the switching is now being done by the 4-pole one.

Have you ever seen the black indicators in the "off" position? On the 4-pole contactor, there looks to be a window on the front with an indicator. Has that ever changed colour?

Simelthwate said:

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

Cjhecking the timings. Does it switch on (start getting warm / make the meter IMP light flash faster) at times that align with the RTS, at times that match the Horstmann controller, or at some other set of times?

This is easier to check if the fused spur connections (power switches) at the meters are ones with neon indicators!

I don't know what an electrician charges per day in your area, but once you've got the smart meter it might be worth getting one in to investigate exactly what's going on with your switchgear and do some rationalisation.

I have not noticed what position the indicators are in at any point and I don't believe the window on the 4-pole one has ever been a different colour when I've looked at the board. However, I will keep an eye out over the weekend.

Unfortunately there aren't any lights on the NSH spurs so it's going to a bit of a task to see what's happening at different times of the day/night but I'll do what I can.

Yes, I think an electrician is needed. Will any electrician be able to work out what is going on? Do they need to be specialists in electric heating?

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

Yes, I think an electrician is needed. Will any electrician be able to work out what is going on? Do they need to be specialists in electric heating?

You don't necessarily need a specialist, but yo do want an experienced electrician, someone who's "been there and done that", one with experience that goes beyond ring mains and cooker radials. Ideally someone who's seen an Electratech system before; I don't know how common they are, though.  

You need to explain to them, before agreeing to employ them, that you've got an all-electric flat with storage heaters and Economy 7 but only a single feed from the meter room, with the E7 switching done by contactors in your consumer unit. And that there looks to be two different control systems, one obsolete, that needs unpicking and rationalising.

If you want eg. neon indicators added to your storage heater and immersion heater spurs, they can do that as part of the same job.

Scot_39

To test the main AC driven contactor switch by the Horstman - try reprogramming (you need to anyway now you know the true RTS times) - you dont have to wait until 3am or whatever your sister programmed it to.  And will have to again when new meter fitted in a weeks time.

PS When I said a lot of power - I might have frightened you off on the NSH test - you could literaly be just wait 10/20 mins until the case starts to heat a little - its only going to cost say 40p at SR - even on a large 3.4kW input NS heater for 30 min.  On a smaller unit even less.  (I could tell within 10 min on my 1.7 kW input - and really obvious after 20 - and the heat continued to build a little for 10 min plus after switched it off at 20 - started air ambinet 22.8, rose to 28.5 by 20min and 30 10 min later after stopped charging).

You will definitely need an electrician if going to upgrade the heaters (Id use the supplying contractor for both - but each to their own) you have no meter controlled restricted feed - so you could go single wired (*) - but that would mean modifying CU if currently restricted feed (as above testing ) and will need to set timers - and if go dual wired - to add 24.7 live spur feed for fans and controllers

AFAIK from the NSH devices commonly mentioned here - only top end HHRs like Quantums and Elnur ECombi iirc - support single wired.

But for now all you need is to know whats going to happen in 3-4 months time - possbly sooner in North - when your mum / sister needs heat - so you know whats controlling it.

And a few simply tests at different times - could give you that answer.

And hand heat is an easy test if heaters on and operating.  

If not willing to use the heat tests, 

As no snart and so no apps / IHD - meter imp light - pain as a remote cabinet

I have test kit - and no pets or idle curious fingers to add to risk - so Id maybe loosen an out of the way spur socket for a day or take the outer case cover off if easy (but I'd check on an asbestos check list for those Credas - mines are asbestos free - Ive checked - as did my electrician - before touching the case screws) - and use my meter or non contact pen (sub £10 these days) - but thats because I have them - and used to doing so - in distant past.

If into DIY - maybe buy a live wire detector tool - particularly a multi detector - from local DIY or trade type chain stores or sites likes of amazon / ebay (the multi ones detect other useful to know things like hidden plumbing - to stop DIY "accidents" - to avoid drilling or hammering nails into pipes or cables).