Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

QrizB

Just a crazy thought, but could the Horstmann timer be controlling everything - including the storage heaters - via the 4-pole contactor?

You've only got three storage heaters, so the 4th pole could be switching the immersion heater?

I'm probably wrong, but it's not a completely bonkers idea.

Scot_39

Simelthwate said:

QrizB said:

The TL contactors are all showing as "on" in this photo; what time was it taken, do you remember?

And is there another time switch somewhere? Possuibly close to the fuse board?

The photo was taken at 7.45pm

There is another part to the consumer unit but it doesn't have any circuits on it that relate to heating or water.


There is another control panel which doesn't turn on (well, the screen is off, the LEDs on the buttons are off and it doesn't react to any button presses). Because it has a picture of an immersion tank on it we thought the Horstmann panel had replaced it so I completely forgot about it. I'm really sorry for not mentioning it sooner. 

I can't see any model number on it.

I suspect @QRizB was asking about the time for the positions of the grey sliders on the TL 16A modules here - as per your first post - trying to find out if anything is actually switching them based on say economy 7 off peak timing.

Regarding the elecratech

If its dead - probably no longer be in use - so the hunt continues.

[But it was quite an interesting piece of kit for it's age.

The web page below talks about it being a common solution by his local old school regional electricity board - and its quite impressive - upto 12 seperate timers for device timing with suitable contactors (so potential for per room control) and 2 hot water tank heating elements.

From the description on this site - the pro manual (*) - it looks like at least some of the keys as mentioned do match - 1-12, 3 symbols for HW etc - certainly could be a variant on the device here

http://pgbw.org.uk/electratech/index.html

That page above actually has two pdf links - a user programming manual by the looks fo it and professional - possibly the installers / configuration manual

That site user also refers to 25+ years old though - so maybe time for another look around - the house - not the remote meter room - or actually possibly not].

Anyway getting back to the possible control of your NSH - 

"The impulse relays can be manually switched by means of the grey lever protruding from the top
of the unit."

The multi 9s are impulse relays rather than simple contactors / relays - the state toggles on a coil pulse (unlike a normal contactor / relay in common speak - you do not have to hold the current on the coil) - I am beginning to wonder if they are just manually set on. 

(The Schneider replacement certainly talks of remote or manual switching.

https://www.se.com/nl/en/product/A9C30112/impulse-relay-itl-2p-2-no-16a-coil-12-vdc-24-vac-50-60hz/)

So your system kind of gels with that bit of the electrotech users (ex users) description of his set-up too.

Maybe it's just simply time to see what happens if actually switch on one of the NSH - during the day - or during the night ? 

I am beginning to wonder if they are time switched at all.  (Although why anyone would want to be running them at day rate on economy 7 - maybe they werent - and I personally wouldnt want to run around switching heaters on / off every night / morning - when they could be timed - but some others will happily do that).

Note - even if turn the input / control dials down  - to heat from ambient to even low heat mode - they will take quite a few kWh - so you might want to turn it off soon after starts heating if does.  In a quiet room you may hear it before you feel it, theres a fair mass of "brick" to be het.

What happens if do so - again - after sliding those grey levers down in turn.  [Switch as much else in the house off as you reasonably can - they can break live current - but no need to do that to your devices from the CU if easy to avoid - in case we are wrong about them driving the nsh(*) - but we think they are.]

Why (*)  question

Your only labelled as having 3 NSH in the CU handwriting - B1, LR and Hall  - and only have 3 multi9s.

Bedroom 2 is marked as a panel heater - your creda model list reads as if you have in fact 4 storage ?  And the 141 is a 1.7kW - small -> mid sized NSH from posts on it.

So theres no longer a 1:1 mapping of those 3 grey switch multi9 tl 16a modules to NSH.  

I suppose one 16A could feed two small NSH MCBs - but not convinced theres need for a manual relay and a manual MCB in any case.

And given the control of the Creda 51 at least - they seem quite old.

(Hence I suspect QRizB wondering if you ever say those grey switches change from up to down (on to off) - if they double as indicators and manual overrides)

So maybe were looking for something stripped out, modified in stages, maybe many years ago.  Or at least left as alien to most of use here would expect - left without timed automation. 

If theres no other user timers - I am beginning to wonder if the NSH are just purely manual - at the switched spur one assumes next to them - or their thermostat if dont switch - so operate night - and day (screams - what about my bills ??).

Maybe the previous occupant wasnt even on e7, never used the heaters - or if did - did switch them daily - or didnt use the timeshifting - so just used as thermostatically regulated panel heaters.

The issue around the water timer - raises questions about the sync for HW - so perfectly possibly everying was just when they wanted - not what the rates were.

Whilst some E7 are like 15p- 35p see saws - maybe the last occupiers were flatter (or even as above being billed SR - so didn't care).  Your mum would have been given the default for the meter type - as its multirate - that would be economy 7 - not what the previous occupant was using for their actual tariff.

QrizB

There's a decade-old thread on the Screwfix forums here:

https://community.screwfix.com/threads/electratech-storage-heater-control-panel.37303/

Apparently it would control storage heaters as well as HW, but was troublesome and is obsolete.

Possibly the Electratech unit is powered from the 1 amp breaker, and it in turn was intended to switch the 24V contactors?

Without delving into the guts of your fuseboard (not recommended unless you're comfortable working with love electrics) it's going to be hard to tell.

QrizB

Ah, this forum post shows a very similar setup to the OP!

https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/can-someone-explain-how-these-storage-heaters-were-wired-via-the-contactor.209521/

I haven't read it in detail yet ...

...

Time passes

...

OK, I think I know what's going on. Famous last words and all that, and I might be completely wrong!

Originally the Electratech panel controlled everything. It switched the 24V contactors which.migh have switched the contactor in turn (as the 24V contactors are only rated at 16A, while the contactor can switch 40A).

Then it expired and was replaced by the Horstmann controller. The Horstmann might (or might not) still be able to switch the 24V relays, depending on exactly what's connected to the 4-pole contactor.

I suspect the "mystery" 1A MCB is powering a 24V transformer. If you switch it off, do the black status indicators on the 24V contactors move?

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

The leftmost of those new breakers - the one immediately adjacent to the DP switch - has a symbol below it that I don't immediately recognise. It's only a 1 amp breaker, so it can't be anything with any significant power.

I wonder what it controls?

Unfortunately I don't recognise the Electrotech controller either 😕

I've just had a look and can see that the symbol under the 1 amp breaker is the logo for Merlin Gerin which is the brand of the circuit breakers and box they are housed in.

Simelthwate

@QrizB @Scot_39 I really appreciate you looking into this latest avenue. Much as I would love to understand electrics more one day, I currently have virtually no understanding so I won't be able to delve into the fusebox unfortunately.

I've had a look at all the links you provided. Seems like the Electratech would very likely have broken down many years before my mum moved in. I think I've already looked everywhere for another panel but I'll do another search tomorrow in daylight.

That setup on the electricians forum does look like mine.

I switched off the 1A breaker as suggested but nothing changed on the contactors.

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

Scot_39

Simelthwate said:

I've finally established that the off-peak hours that the RTS is switching are 23:30 - 01:30 and 03:30 - 08.30. So not the 00.30 - 07.30 that EDF told me on the phone and on their website

Can I complain to EDF about this as we have had the immersion on using peak-rate energy between 01.30-03.30? Or was it fully my responsibility to have checked the actual hours in the meter room? What if my mum didn't have me to get up multiple times across multiple nights to identify the actual peak rates? Surely, a customer who has made a reasonable attempt to ascertain the off-peak hours from their supplier should be able to rely on what they are telling you. How would an elderly person be able to deal with all this on their own? 

22:30 to 00:30 and 02:30 to 07:30 GMT is more likely the actual timing.  But pretty soon its going to be academic.

Chances are your new smets meter will be a solid 7 hour block - possibly the same as EDF told you (as they have more control on your new meter - within the DNOs regional band)

And it is a not uncommon 2+2+5 split in some regions - even some have had their smart meters reset to replicate it after their suppliers changed to single 7 hour by default.

As they prefer it for reasons - like warming bedrooms at night on cheap rate etc.

Scot_39

Simelthwate said:

Oh dear. Should be having a smart meter installed towards the end of next week. The fitter might have some challenges. I hope it's not going to make the heating/hot water situation worse somehow. Has to be done though.

Given their are operational smart meters, the only thing that mght complicate things is the RTS switch signal wire.

Hopefully the fitter will copy the other smart installs - and move to a Henley type (the white ones) block - to isolate.

And dont forget to ask what the meter fitter says the new times on the new meter are.

And give them a check - now or in a few days if the final still to be downloaded.

And just to be sure - after the clocks change again.

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

I switched off the 1A breaker as suggested but nothing changed on the contactors.

it's possible that the single ones are redundant, and all the switching is now being done by the 4-pole one.

Have you ever seen the black indicators in the "off" position? On the 4-pole contactor, there looks to be a window on the front with an indicator. Has that ever changed colour?

Simelthwate said:

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

Cjhecking the timings. Does it switch on (start getting warm / make the meter IMP light flash faster) at times that align with the RTS, at times that match the Horstmann controller, or at some other set of times?

This is easier to check if the fused spur connections (power switches) at the meters are ones with neon indicators!

I don't know what an electrician charges per day in your area, but once you've got the smart meter it might be worth getting one in to investigate exactly what's going on with your switchgear and do some rationalisation.

Scot_39

Simelthwate said:

If I switch on one of the NSH, what am I watching for or looking to find out? 

it heating or not - particulary in day time - at e7 peak rate - which would be pretty much the most expensive option you could fall foul of