Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

Scot_39

As @QrizB

If copy others - new smart maybe just terminating control signal safely - and refit tails.


Flat 11 maybe at one stage different ?

Middle top looks to have a tailless external proteus contactor wired to a secure liberty 100 series ?  Early wers smets1 later were smets2..

That was EOns default offering for restricted supply multirate in mid to late 2010s.
Its how my smets1 install was done c2017.  So wonder if at one point had an off peak restricted supply.  Seems a lot of effort and cost if not.  It also has a different tail to flat cable isolation box from others.


Still little curious re tge off peak comment on the flat CU for hot water - but that could just mean  bottom in a 2 immersion heater tank.

And guessing her nsh must have own timer(s) if no meter restricted feed

And from whats visible in meter room, suggests no restricted feed.

With what looks like one neutral, one 24/7 live tail from meters plus earth entering the isolator boxes above meters.

Do you know the nsh make / model numbers (sorry if I missed them above )  ?

  

Simelthwate

Scot_39 said:

As @QrizB

If copy others - new smart maybe just terminating control signal safely - and refit tails.


Flat 11 maybe at one stage different ?

Middle top looks to have a tailless external proteus contactor wired to a secure liberty 100 series ?  Early wers smets1 later were smets2..

That was EOns default offering for restricted supply multirate in mid to late 2010s.
Its how my smets1 install was done c2017.  So wonder if at one point had an off peak restricted supply.  Seems a lot of effort and cost if not.  It also has a different tail to flat cable isolation box from others.


Still little curious re tge off peak comment on the flat CU for hot water - but that could just mean  bottom in a 2 immersion heater tank.

And guessing her nsh must have own timer(s) if no meter restricted feed

And from whats visible in meter room, suggests no restricted feed.

With what looks like one neutral, one 24/7 live tail from meters plus earth entering the isolator boxes above meters.

Do you know the nsh make / model numbers (sorry if I missed them above )  ?

  

Sorry, what comment are you curious about here? "Still little curious re tge off peak comment on the flat CU for hot water"

These are the smart meters that are there:

I can't see any way to control when the storage heaters come on. No timers anywhere. 
Main bedroom - Creda Automatic 79151

Hall - Creda Automatic 79151
Bedroom 2 - Creda Automatic 79141

Lounge - Creda Automatic 79161

QrizB

Back in the opening post of this thread, you shared this photo:

Simelthwate said:
This is a picture of some of the circuits, which includes off-peak and day water heater ones:

On the top row, above the MCBs, you've got a row of contactors.

The Europa EUC3-40 is a 4-pole 40A contactor, and the three multi9 TL 15407s are each a 16A contactor with 24v primaries. I can't tell what is switching these, or where the 24 volt supply for the multi9 TLs comes from, but Iit seem's likely that these are intended to switch the E7 restricted feed to your storage heaters and (possibly) immersion heater.

The TL contactors are all showing as "on" in this photo; what time was it taken, do you remember?

And is there another time switch somewhere? Possuibly close to the fuse board?

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

Whoever installed that Secure Liberty 100 meter was clerly expecting to need a contactor-switched off-peak supply, but there's no loads connected to it. That's quite odd.
Someone's been very clever (not necessarily in a good way ) when they first installed RTS-switched E7 into this block, and unpicking it is going to be a challenge when we're not on-site and able to poke about.

Scot_39

Simelthwate said:

Scot_39 said:

As @QrizB

If copy others - new smart maybe just terminating control signal safely - and refit tails.


Flat 11 maybe at one stage different ?

Middle top looks to have a tailless external proteus contactor wired to a secure liberty 100 series ?  Early wers smets1 later were smets2..

That was EOns default offering for restricted supply multirate in mid to late 2010s.
Its how my smets1 install was done c2017.  So wonder if at one point had an off peak restricted supply.  Seems a lot of effort and cost if not.  It also has a different tail to flat cable isolation box from others.


Still little curious re tge off peak comment on the flat CU for hot water - but that could just mean  bottom in a 2 immersion heater tank.

And guessing her nsh must have own timer(s) if no meter restricted feed

And from whats visible in meter room, suggests no restricted feed.

With what looks like one neutral, one 24/7 live tail from meters plus earth entering the isolator boxes above meters.

Do you know the nsh make / model numbers (sorry if I missed them above )  ?

  

Sorry, what comment are you curious about here? "Still little curious re tge off peak comment on the flat CU for hot water"

These are the smart meters that are there:

I can't see any way to control when the storage heaters come on. No timers anywhere. 
Main bedroom - Creda Automatic 79151

Hall - Creda Automatic 79151
Bedroom 2 - Creda Automatic 79141

Lounge - Creda Automatic 79161

Thanks @QRizB for the CU contactor comments - I'd not checked the contact coil voltage (24V DC) suggesting theres some other timer / control somewhere.

A few posts have referred to anorther intermediate unit - that may have used external temp to further regulate off peak charging periods - a Creda Meter Minder - but no idea of voltages etc - to drive the secondary contactors - but only to reduce the time period - not control it completely. 

Re the Creda NSH

Cannont find a manual for the Credas

From the 2nd photo here on a 79151 though 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167591684646?

As far as I can tell from the description inside the flap in that photo - and the name - the credas are maybe similar generation to my old Unidare WMS the "automatic" version of the WMS / WMX Series NSH (my aging little A5 user manual revision dated 93 - the heaters themselves ??)

I have to constantly adjust my input control - despite there supposedly being some regulation compensaton of charge demand as weather changes - but perhaps E10 also interferes with that as well as boost (*) - and dont use the boost control.  Maybe on one or more of my 3 (LR, 2 halls) - every 2-3 days - there a bit of a faff to be honest - but Ive learned how far to adjust based on the next day or two's forecasts - and E10s 3 charges mean they do respond faster when do.

(*) My boost control dial can be automatic too - I dont use it (as E10 recharges by time boost would activate) which the little manual suggest (based on E7 overnight charging I presume ) - max boost setting opens flap early afternoon - mid setting in the evening.

I have seen one post on 79161 - but the dials are called something else on that model - and cannot find a manual or a good user description.

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

The TL contactors are all showing as "on" in this photo; what time was it taken, do you remember?

And is there another time switch somewhere? Possuibly close to the fuse board?

The photo was taken at 7.45pm

There is another part to the consumer unit but it doesn't have any circuits on it that relate to heating or water.


There is another control panel which doesn't turn on (well, the screen is off, the LEDs on the buttons are off and it doesn't react to any button presses). Because it has a picture of an immersion tank on it we thought the Horstmann panel had replaced it so I completely forgot about it. I'm really sorry for not mentioning it sooner. 

I can't see any model number on it.

Simelthwate

@Scot_39 Thank you for looking into the Credas

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

Whoever installed that Secure Liberty 100 meter was clerly expecting to need a contactor-switched off-peak supply, but there's no loads connected to it. That's quite odd.

Someone's been very clever (not necessarily in a good way ) when they first installed RTS-switched E7 into this block, and unpicking it is going to be a challenge when we're not on-site and able to poke about.

Oh dear. Should be having a smart meter installed towards the end of next week. The fitter might have some challenges. I hope it's not going to make the heating/hot water situation worse somehow. Has to be done though.

Simelthwate

I've finally established that the off-peak hours that the RTS is switching are 23:30 - 01:30 and 03:30 - 08.30. So not the 00.30 - 07.30 that EDF told me on the phone and on their website

Can I complain to EDF about this as we have had the immersion on using peak-rate energy between 01.30-03.30? Or was it fully my responsibility to have checked the actual hours in the meter room? What if my mum didn't have me to get up multiple times across multiple nights to identify the actual peak rates? Surely, a customer who has made a reasonable attempt to ascertain the off-peak hours from their supplier should be able to rely on what they are telling you. How would an elderly person be able to deal with all this on their own? 

QrizB

The leftmost of those new breakers - the one immediately adjacent to the DP switch - has a symbol below it that I don't immediately recognise. It's only a 1 amp breaker, so it can't be anything with any significant power.

I wonder what it controls?

Unfortunately I don't recognise the Electrotech controller either 😕