Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

Simelthwate

Hi again. I've not had a chance to get back on the forum for a week as spending time at hospital but I have been at my mum's for a couple of days and have an update.
 
1. I have looked at the RTS box for the last two nights. Here are the positions of the red switch that I saw:

First picture is red switch up and second one is switch down


So far, by watching when the RTS switch moves (more info below), I have gathered that Rate 2:
- Starts some time in the night/early morning and ends at 01.30. (Based only on watching the flashing rate on the meter a couple of weeks ago, not the RTS itself, I think rate 2 starts some time between 23.05 and 00.29)
- It then starts again some time after 02.31 and ends at 08.30. 

I will need to watch tonight to fill in the missing start times

Observations:

2 July

06.28 Rate 2 flashing, RTS switch is down, red imp light on meter flashing fast
Immersion itself is on, off-peak light on the Horstmann is on 

06.37 All same.
Rate 1 50827 rate 2 95742

07.27 Rate 2 flashing, RTS down, red imp light on meter flashing slow, 

Immersion itself is off, light off on control panel 

Meter readings the same

07.48 All the same

08.26 All the same. Rate 1 50827 Rate 2 now 95743

08.30 RTS red switch went up and Rate 1 started flashing. Imp light flashing about every 7 seconds

3 July

01.26 Rate 2 flashing, RTS switch is down

Rate 1 50834, Rate 2 95743 (same as at 08.26 yesterday morning)

01.30 RTS switch went up. Rate 1 started flashing. 

01.43 RTS still up and Rate 1 flashing.
Immersion not on, off-peak light not on.

02.29 RTS still up and Rate 1 flashing.

02.31 RTS still up and Rate 1 flashing.


2. We contacted EOn via email last night as phone lines were closed and they came back and said she does not have an RTS but that her meter certificate has expired. They therefore want to arrange for a smart meter to be fitted

Is it possible that she is not on RTS despite her thin wire going into it? Maybe there is some sort of workaround in the meter room?
8 of the 12 meters in the room are the same as mum's (5196D) and also go into the RTS box. These have obviously not been changed to smart meters either so either these residents and their suppliers are unaware that there is a RTS in place, or the RTS is somehow not in use.

3. My sister was able to reprogram the Horstman to come on 03.30-07.00. Hopefully this is now within off-peak times but I still need to watch the RTS more to determine exact switching times.

4. Once I have established the off-peak times per the RTS, what will happen to them when we go back to GMT? e.g. if off-peak RTS is currently ending at 08.30, will they end at 07:30 when clocks go back or stay at 08.30? 

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

2. We contacted EOn via email last night as phone lines were closed and they came back and said she does not have an RTS but that her meter certificate has expired. They therefore want to arrange for a smart meter to be fitted
Is it possible that she is not on RTS despite her thin wire going into it? Maybe there is some sort of workaround in the meter room?

This would not be the first time that a supplier does not know whether there is an RTS involved. They can tell the make & model of the.keter from the serial number but that doesn't tell them what other metering equipment is present.

The Ampy 5196D does not have an internal time switch. The RTS will be providing the external timing signal that switches you from one rate to another, and also switches the E7-only supply to your storage heaters.

Simelthwate said:

8 of the 12 meters in the room are the same as mum's (5196D) and also go into the RTS box. These have obviously not been changed to smart meters either so either these residents and their suppliers are unaware that there is a RTS in place, or the RTS is somehow not in use.

Don you all share a single RTS box, or does each flat has its own? The way you've written that, it sounds as though you share one? That would be unusual but could perhaps be achieved with enough additional switchgear.

Nevertheless, the other flat owners/tenants should also be agitating to have their meters replaced.

Simelthwate said:

4. Once I have established the off-peak times per the RTS, what will happen to them when we go back to GMT? e.g. if off-peak RTS is currently ending at 08.30, will they end at 07:30 when clocks go back or stay at 08.30? 

Usually E7 stays on the same GMT hours all year around, but the RTS system allows operators to change the hours freely, to match grid demand or weather for example. When you get your smart meter, you might have different E7 hours to your current ones but they're less likely to see further changes unless you choose a smart tariff like Snug Octopus.

Simelthwate

WiserMiser said:

This video shows how you should use old storage heaters.

Don't even think of Fischer or Rointe. All electric heaters give out the same amount of heat for a given kWh input. You won't get something for nothing (except heat pumps which 'steal' heat from the air, ground or water).

Search for Oversized Rainfall Shower Head.

Also consider a power shower (pumped, but using cheap hot water from the tank).

Thanks for the video. I will need to check the heaters work in case mum doesn't get them replaced in time for winter

I had heard about Fischer's reputation but not heard bad things about Rointe radiators. A few people in mum's block have them. It was suggested she have them in the bedrooms as would only need to be on for a while before bed and first thing in the morning, rather than all day. Is the problem that these expensive ceramic core radiators like Rointe/Elnur/Electrorad just that they are more expensive to run than HHR Storage heaters, that they are no better than cheaper electric radiators, or that electric radiators are a waste of money full stop and a fan heater or something else would be just as good?  

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

I had heard about Fischer's reputation but not heard bad things about Rointe radiators. A few people in mum's block have them. It was suggested she have them in the bedrooms as would only need to be on for a while before bed and first thing in the morning, rather than all day. Is the problem that these expensive ceramic core radiators like Rointe/Elnur/Electrorad just that they are more expensive to run than HHR Storage heaters, that they are no better than cheaper electric radiators, or that electric radiators are a waste of money full stop and a fan heater or something else would be just as good?  

There is a case for having a panel heater in a bedroom instead of a storage heater, but that relies on the bedroom being used for sleeping and not eg. as a home office or teenagers study. There's an occasional poster with a teen daughter whose landlord replaced their ancient storage heaters with modern HHR ones; a generous and well-meaning move, but the teen's bedroom only got a panel heater and keeping it warm in the winter was expensive.

And yes, expensive direct heaters with cores of ceramic / clay / unicorn poo are no cheaper to run than a basic panel heater or a £40 oil-filled radiator.

(I wouldn't normally put a fan heater in a bedroom as they're not safe to run unattended. You might fall asleep with it running then not be awake to deal with a mishap.)

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

2. We contacted EOn via email last night as phone lines were closed and they came back and said she does not have an RTS but that her meter certificate has expired. They therefore want to arrange for a smart meter to be fitted
Is it possible that she is not on RTS despite her thin wire going into it? Maybe there is some sort of workaround in the meter room?

This would not be the first time that a supplier does not know whether there is an RTS involved. They can tell the make & model of the.keter from the serial number but that doesn't tell them what other metering equipment is present.

The Ampy 5196D does not have an internal time switch. The RTS will be providing the external timing signal that switches you from one rate to another, and also switches the E7-only supply to your storage heaters.

Simelthwate said:

8 of the 12 meters in the room are the same as mum's (5196D) and also go into the RTS box. These have obviously not been changed to smart meters either so either these residents and their suppliers are unaware that there is a RTS in place, or the RTS is somehow not in use.

Don you all share a single RTS box, or does each flat has its own? The way you've written that, it sounds as though you share one? That would be unusual but could perhaps be achieved with enough additional switchgear.

Nevertheless, the other flat owners/tenants should also be agitating to have their meters replaced.

Simelthwate said:

4. Once I have established the off-peak times per the RTS, what will happen to them when we go back to GMT? e.g. if off-peak RTS is currently ending at 08.30, will they end at 07:30 when clocks go back or stay at 08.30? 

Usually E7 stays on the same GMT hours all year around, but the RTS system allows operators to change the hours freely, to match grid demand or weather for example. When you get your smart meter, you might have different E7 hours to your current ones but they're less likely to see further changes unless you choose a smart tariff like Snug Octopus.

Thank you for explaining all this.

Regarding the RTS box, here are some pictures of the meter room.



Mum's meter is the top one on the leftmost board. There is on RTS on the third board from the left and a white box above it. The wiring is very tightly packed so it's hard to see what is happening. I managed to see a bit better just now and it looks like all the meters have a wires that go into the white box and then the white box is connected to the RTS. It initially looked like mum's wire was going directly into the RTS but now I'm not so sure. So maybe I've set everyone off on the wrong path. I apologise if so.

QrizB

I think you're right.

The white box contains three contactors, which I'm guessing is one per phase.

The RTS switches all three contactors, and those contactors then send rate-switching signals to all the other 5196D meters.

I'm not sure whether to describe that as "elegant" or not, but it does minimise the amount of switchgear needed in the meter room!

With you all sharing a single RTS, it will have to remain in commission until all the RTS-switched meters have been replaced. It seems that at least four of the flats have smart meters already (one SMETS1 Secure Liberty with an external E7 contactor, two 4-terminal Aclara(?) meters with no evidence of E7 switching, and a fourth one that's edge-on and hard to ID) so a smart meter replacement should be straightforward.

It's interesting that the RTS signal cables are still present on the smart meter boards, but are disused and terminate in terminal boxes - one of which is marked "DANGER treat as live".

A question: there's a white current clamp attached to the tails (wires) just below your Mum's meter. Does she have an energy monitor that gets readings from this? If not, do you know what it's for?

SpectralNova

It might be worth checking if the top immersion heater is still switched on. That one usually uses the expensive day rate. If it's on, it could be heating water at the wrong time.

You can also try using a timer to control when the immersion comes on, so it only heats during off-peak hours. That way you avoid using electricity when it's most expensive.

If your mum uses the shower during the day, that could explain a lot of the high usage. Electric showers use a lot of power and can quickly increase bills.

Getting a smart meter in the future could help you see exactly when energy is being used and make it easier to manage.

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

I had heard about Fischer's reputation but not heard bad things about Rointe radiators. A few people in mum's block have them. It was suggested she have them in the bedrooms as would only need to be on for a while before bed and first thing in the morning, rather than all day. Is the problem that these expensive ceramic core radiators like Rointe/Elnur/Electrorad just that they are more expensive to run than HHR Storage heaters, that they are no better than cheaper electric radiators, or that electric radiators are a waste of money full stop and a fan heater or something else would be just as good?  

There is a case for having a panel heater in a bedroom instead of a storage heater, but that relies on the bedroom being used for sleeping and not eg. as a home office or teenagers study. There's an occasional poster with a teen daughter whose landlord replaced their ancient storage heaters with modern HHR ones; a generous and well-meaning move, but the teen's bedroom only got a panel heater and keeping it warm in the winter was expensive.

And yes, expensive direct heaters with cores of ceramic / clay / unicorn poo are no cheaper to run than a basic panel heater or a £40 oil-filled radiator.

(I wouldn't normally put a fan heater in a bedroom as they're not safe to run unattended. You might fall asleep with it running then not be awake to deal with a mishap.)

Thank you. I see what you are saying and will bear in mind about the use of the bedrooms outside of just sleeping. So, the expensive ones cost the same to run as panel/fan heaters but are they better at distributing the heat in some way? Is there any advantage to them?

QrizB

Simelthwate said:

QrizB said:

Simelthwate said:

I had heard about Fischer's reputation but not heard bad things about Rointe radiators. A few people in mum's block have them. It was suggested she have them in the bedrooms as would only need to be on for a while before bed and first thing in the morning, rather than all day. Is the problem that these expensive ceramic core radiators like Rointe/Elnur/Electrorad just that they are more expensive to run than HHR Storage heaters, that they are no better than cheaper electric radiators, or that electric radiators are a waste of money full stop and a fan heater or something else would be just as good?  

There is a case for having a panel heater in a bedroom instead of a storage heater, but that relies on the bedroom being used for sleeping and not eg. as a home office or teenagers study. There's an occasional poster with a teen daughter whose landlord replaced their ancient storage heaters with modern HHR ones; a generous and well-meaning move, but the teen's bedroom only got a panel heater and keeping it warm in the winter was expensive.

And yes, expensive direct heaters with cores of ceramic / clay / unicorn poo are no cheaper to run than a basic panel heater or a £40 oil-filled radiator.

(I wouldn't normally put a fan heater in a bedroom as they're not safe to run unattended. You might fall asleep with it running then not be awake to deal with a mishap.)

Thank you. I see what you are saying and will bear in mind about the use of the bedrooms outside of just sleeping. So, the expensive ones cost the same to run as panel/fan heaters but are they better at distributing the heat in some way? Is there any advantage to them?

The only advantage that one of the major names has managed to demonstrate under lab conditions (a brand you've already mentioned) was that their clever thermostat holds tighter temperature control than their cheaper competition (or than a storage heater). So as an hypothetical example, a cheap heater set to 20C might ripple from 19C to 21C (+/- 1C of hysteresis) while the expensive pixie-dust-filled rad with the clever thermostat might only ripple from 19.8C to 20.2C (+/- 0.2C).

They claim this gives a more comfortable room. In practice I'm not sure many people are going to be bothered.

Simelthwate

QrizB said:

I think you're right.

The white box contains three contactors, which I'm guessing is one per phase.

The RTS switches all three contactors, and those contactors then send rate-switching signals to all the other 5196D meters.

I'm not sure whether to describe that as "elegant" or not, but it does minimise the amount of switchgear needed in the meter room!

With you all sharing a single RTS, it will have to remain in commission until all the RTS-switched meters have been replaced. It seems that at least four of the flats have smart meters already (one SMETS1 Secure Liberty with an external E7 contactor, two 4-terminal Aclara(?) meters with no evidence of E7 switching, and a fourth one that's edge-on and hard to ID) so a smart meter replacement should be straightforward.

It's interesting that the RTS signal cables are still present on the smart meter boards, but are disused and terminate in terminal boxes - one of which is marked "DANGER treat as live".

A question: there's a white current clamp attached to the tails (wires) just below your Mum's meter. Does she have an energy monitor that gets readings from this? If not, do you know what it's for?

Ah, so that's how it works.
Yes, 4 of the flats have a smart meter. It seems then that the other 7 residents without a smart meter probably don't know they need to get one ASAP.
I wondered what that white clamp was. It was there when mum moved in but there's no energy monitor in the flat so I don't know what it's for. It says 'Meter Sensor' on it