Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

QrizB

An example of the maths, taking the electric shower and summertime conditions.

9500 / 4.2 = 2262 ml-degrees per second 

2261 / 22 = 103 ml per second 

103 x 60 = 6180 ml = 6.2 litres.

Simelthwate

@Spoonie_Turtle @Qyburn

Thanks for the suggestion of establishing that the meter has been correctly assigned. I have just checked and it is the correct one.

I can only assume that the showering is bumping up the kWh usage. I don't know what else could be using a lot of power as the heating has never been turned on.

Simelthwate

WiserMiser said:

Simelthwate said:

WiserMiser said:

Regarding E.On Next, you need to get them to rebill at the correct rates, night being the cheap rate.  Unfortunately there's nothing you can do if the Horstmann was switching the immersion heater on at the wrong time, that's water under the bridge and sadly it's your problem not theirs.

However, you should ask for compo from E.On Next for the serious overcharging: it should never have been allowed to happen.  Ask for £100 politely but firmly, and consider accepting £50.  Or £150 and settle for £100 if you're bold !  Go to the Ombudsman if they don't play ball.

Unfortunately you'll have to check the times and re-program the Horstmann again after the meter has been changed because the new E7 times won't be exactly the same.  The only way to be sure will be to check the new meter's display, you mustn't rely on what you are told or read because it'll be an expensive mistake forever if you get it wrong.

I see that the Horstmann programming error is my problem not EOn's, but please could you explain the compensation aspect to me a bit more? What is it that they would be compensating us for? The bill shows three times as much billed at 15.625p (295.7kWh) than at 32.143p (93.7 kWh). If they should have charged 295.7kWh @ 32.143p instead of 15.625p then they have undercharged if anything. I feel like I am completely misunderstanding the situation.

Thanks, I will remember to reprogramme the Horstmann once the meter is changed. I definitely do not want to make an expensive mistake. 

They seem to be making a very basic mistake that would result in serious overcharging.  Even if initially in your favour, that would only be temporary and you'd be disadvantaged forever.  If so, there's really no excuse because it's so obvious, the whole point of E7 is that the night rate is always lower to allow heat to be stored, full stop.

Wait until the problem has been resolved and then request compo if, as seems highly likely, there's simply no excuse for having made such a mistake: it has wasted your time,  caused worry and would have resulted in ongoing financial losses.

You may well find that compo is offered automatically.

Thank you. I understand now. That is very helpful.

WiserMiser

This video shows how you should use old storage heaters.

Don't even think of Fischer or Rointe. All electric heaters give out the same amount of heat for a given kWh input. You won't get something for nothing (except heat pumps which 'steal' heat from the air, ground or water).

Search for Oversized Rainfall Shower Head.

Also consider a power shower (pumped, but using cheap hot water from the tank).

Scot_39

Meter Type

It should be obvious to EOn and the meter fitter you have both peak and off peak supplies - but you could remind EOn just in case.  

You could for instance ask them for a 5 port economy 7 meter or economy 7 meter with ALCS - as need it to drive your HW / NSH.

Timing Mismatch

For reasons that for many E7 / E10 etc users seems overkill - and no user should really ever have to know - the smart meter specification has two independent sets of timings - both of which need to be set.

The tariff control - so for likes of E7 - the meter has not only 2 charge rates - and the times between which to operate them on - so the Ildhund times above.

But the ALCS (Auxiliary Load Control Switch) timings as well - stored in different tables.

And these can accidentally get out of step - but if so - are normally quickly resolved - if spotted.  (A bit like the issue with your HW timer being out of step)

[So in one recent example - having fought for an E10 tariff and off peak mid day - to replace her RTS which had 2 hr off peak afternoon boost - as although more expensive than E7 - E10 came with afternoon boost - @Rosie1001 had their supplier reset their meter tariff to E7 a few days after install - but not the ALCS Calander (times). 

She therefore had to try and find out what went wrong and request EDF fix it - which they did after xx days. During which she gathered photos of things like meter on peak rate but heaters / hw on and vice versa as prrof of their error.

Energy Usew from Certificate

At best an educated guess.  No 2 users are ever going to use exacly the same in the same property.

6000 kWH heat and hot water is a lot of electric vs the Ofgem PC2 median TDCVs 3900 kWh total - but only half the median TDCV for dual fuel - 11,500 kWh gas plus 2700 kWh electricity or the Ofgem low TDCV for DF - 7500 kWh + 1800 kWh electric.

But they do a high of all electric PC2 - 6700 kWh total.

Last time I checked my neighbours use - she was double mine - over 7000 kWh in fact.  The woman with teen duaghter and a student when home in the end of terrace on other side - nearer 8000 kWh.

These TDCVs are just a guide point - iirc just the filtered measured quartiles - so low 25% meters below, 75% above, median 50 % meters below 50%  above, the highs 75% below,, 25% above.

And Ofgem are aware of PC2 data limitations (which is one reason I say meters)

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/TDCV 2023 Decision Letter.pdf

The main fault on the energy report with the NSH is the manual control.  And at guess that probably means they are old so maybe more lossy / leaky / less well insulated to boot.  

To be honest you dont need to go to top end HHR for room thermostatic control or charge learning functionality -both of which are likely game changers in terms of usability and cost.

HHR primarily a distinction about how much heat will leak when the fans aren't actively distributing heat.

For instance after charging even on mid - my old heater case will be too hot to touch - on a HHR they will be above ambient but not hot.

Automatic charge regulation also helps save energy - and shear hassle.

(I have c30 yr old manual - I literally have to tweak settings every 2-3 days some months - looking at the weather forecast - its a faff tbh - but one I am used to it now.  Across just 3 heaters I often make 10-15 changes to one or more's settings per month.  As if the temp swings, sun or wind changes etc - can move temps couple of degrees either way - I am too hot cf target - so wasting energy - and if cools might be too cold - so I boost use plugins in afternoon and evening - but tolerate the cold upto off peak times - to save using heat at peak rates.  The more elderly , disabled etc dont have that luxury)

New HHRs - or often cheaper but far better spec than old NSH - the better modern lot 20s - are generally time programmable, thermostatically controlled (think individual TRV with own per room timing - smart TRV as it were - rather than central hall/wall thermorstat and timing if used to gas CH). 

Many now adapt there charge to demand  - HHR and lot 20 - so from the Glen Dimplex family - the HHR Quantums and the XLE now in recent revisions at least - or sister brand Creda TSREs for instance also do that.  

I got a quote to upgrade c2020/21 - but the payback E10 vs E7 rates was too long - even if assumed savings still well in mid teens - with just rates over 20 as a low heat user.

Just looking again against RF thats now over £200 for the 100s and my living room size - 150 - (I was advised not to go for 1 150 but 2 100s on E7) - the Creda is nearly £300 cheaper.

Take a look at pricing - just supply - just one vender - from near top of google list - not a recommendation (I would go supplied by installers / electricians - less arguments with single vender - they take responsibility for all)

Creda

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/creda-tsre

Dimplex own XLEs

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/dimplex-xle

or full blown HHR Quantums (sadly now all RF AFAIK - but people here are buying old non RF - used I guess - models off resellers etc)

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/dimplex-quantum-rf

TBH if the flats going to be occupied fairly full time - lot 20 might just be the option - but they do not offer the single wired mode ( given your being burned on HW - I suspect you might want to avoid single wired anyway )

(If I dont move in next couple of years - a one HHR / rest lot 20s - might be my choice - at those even higher price differentials)

And seen landlords here and elsewhere discuss just one HHR being enough to swing their property ratings upto the required standard.

Also Dimplex make claims of large savings with Quantums cf older NSH - like their 27% claim here

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/company/news/mythbusters-quantum-vs-night-storage-heaters

QrizB

Search for Oversized Rainfall Shower Head.

DO NOT put an oversized head on an instantaneous electric shower, you'll just end up cold and wet.

Scot_39

Tend to agree - my 9kW is basically not much more than a trickle in winter - on my old head I had to take it off the outer rings (It had 3 sets).

Its certainly not exactly giving a deep muscle heat rub after a trip to the pool or ride on bike.

But in summer I can set it on low (one of these days I must check what power that is on heater) and still get a reasonable flow on days like today.  The on full power flow seems wasteful be comparison

WiserMiser

QrizB said:

Search for Oversized Rainfall Shower Head.

DO NOT put an oversized head on an instantaneous electric shower, you'll just end up cold and wet.

That's why I said Also consider a power shower (pumped, but using cheap hot water from the tank).

Scot_39

Wont power showers just use even more water.

Or does the higher flow cut the time so it balances out ?

Federal and then US states for instance mandated even lower flow shower heads.

But this UK student campus - note the caveats given talking about students here - already over 4m below UK average - might fly in face of that policy

Wonder where the govt got 4 min targer from as that study suggests c11m average

https://www.freethink.com/energy/water-pressure

I wonder if it's been repeated at scale elsewhere - on different age groups.

WiserMiser

Scot_39 said:

Won't power showers just use even more water.

Or does the higher flow cut the time so it balances out ?

But the stored hot water would be much cheaper so using a bit more wouldn't matter.