Economy 7 and energy usage concerns in new flat

FrugaiMacDugal

Something doesn't tally,

OP says,

"Day rate 15.625p/kWh, Night rate 32.143p/kWh, Standing charge 48.564p/day
The first electricity bill (for 30 Apr - 27 May) was about £120 with approx 320kWh day rate (average 11.9kWh/day) and 100kWh night rate (average 3.8kWh/day),"

27 days @ 48.564p = 13.11

320 kWh @ 15.625 = 50.00

100 kWh @ 32.143 = 32.14 Total 95.26

swapping readings around gives,

27 days @ 48.564p = 13.11

320 kWh @ 32.143 = 102.86

100 kWh @ 15.625 = 15.63 Total 131.59

there may still be vat to add,

need OP back for more info, but looks like he's gone.

Simelthwate

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for all your responses. Apologies for not coming back to you in a timely manner. I have been dealing with some family problems I have to be at the hospital all day tomorrow (Monday) so will be delayed again.

I have not had a chance to read over all your answers in detail but glanced over them and saw some of the questions asked. For now I will provide some more information that I obtained at my mum's flat that answers some of these. I will respond to you all individually either late tomorrow or Tuesday. If there are things I cannot answer I will try to find out when I go back to my mum's later in the week.

Here is a better picture of the meter. It is a type 5196D:


The thin wire from the meter goes into a white box that has a black box under it.

White box:


Black box:


Both boxes:


We had 2 bills. One for £96.25 showing 30 Apr (move in date) and separately 1-25 May. Then another for £19.15 for 26-30 May. Total £115.40.

This is a picture of the bills:
It says the Day rate is 15.625p and Night is 32.143p. As some of you have mentioned, the day rate should be the more expensive one. 



Here are the actual meter readings:


Now I have another strange thing to report:

2 nights ago I turned off the day/peak water heater circuit on the consumer unit so that it couldn't be used.

22.30 is the time that the off-peak light comes on on the water heater control panel. I went down to the meter room for 22:29 and watched the meter for a while. I was looking at that and the off-peak light on the control panel at various times throughout the night

22:29
Imp/kWh light on meter flashing slowly
Rate 1 was flashing (active)

22:30 (When off-peak light comes on)
Imp/kWh light started flashing fast.

Rate 1 flashing and the rate 2 was still static.

Rate 1 is 50736

Rate 2 is 95696

22.55

Rate 1 is 50738 (2 units increase)

Rate 2 is 95696 (no change)

23.05

Rate 1 (still flashing) is 50738 (no change from 10 mins ago)

Rate 2 is 95696 (no change)

23.06 Off-peak light on control panel still on.
Immersion heater was making a noise and was warm.
Turned off the immersion on control panel as didn't need it to heat any more water + worried about being charged peak rate

00:28 Off-peak light is off. Turned on the immersion on control panel - off-peak light did not come on. Turned off the immersion again

00.29

Slow flashing on imp kWh light. 
Rate 1 50739

Rate 2 flashing and showing 95697

00:31 Off-peak light still off

02:28 Off-peak light still off

02:31 Off-peak light still off

04:24 Off-peak light is now on

04:32 Off-peak light is still on

05:58 Off-peak light is on

06:00 Off-peak light switched itself off

07:31 Off-peak light still off

10.05 Off-peak light off. V slow flashing on imp indicator. 

Rate 1 flashing 50740

Rate 2 static 95699

So, from this, what I can say is that off-peak light comes on at 22:30 and goes off some time between 23:07 and 00:28. Will have to watch this when I'm next at mum's to find exactly when it switches.
It comes on again some time between 02:32 and 04:23
And off again at 06:00

How many times it goes on and off overnight I do not know.

Of note (to me anyway) is that Rate 1 was flashing on the meter both when the off-peak light was on and when it was off. Rate 1 flashing at 22:29 (off-peak light off) and when I was watching from 22:30 - 23:05 (off-peak light on). And at 10.05 am (off-peak light off)

I can't make head nor tail of what is going on here.


MPAN
The Meter Time-Switch Code is 811
Region Code is 16

This is all I have to say for now. I hope this information helps in some way. 

Thanks again to everyone and I will get back to you about your comments and questions.

Scot_39

That looks like RTS  - so need a meter swap appointment

The meter the 5196D - is I suspect an even earlier version than the 5235 - that black box as labelled - is an RTS timeswitch.

The white box above it is a series of contactors - again likely driven by the RTS - to power the off peak circuits.

If your mum / sister doesn't already have a replacement meter fitting booked (the previous occupants - even - let alone your mum / sister - should have been contacted about an upgrade).  

So as soon as they - or you if authorised already - can you need to contact thier supplier - and check the status - that they are registered as having an RTS system - (and if needby - does your mum need to be on their PSR - for medical reasons - and if not already in place - book a replacement meter fitting.

(Try not to panic about what you might have read for the last few months - as Ofgem have now stated that the 30th June date - are just recently announced to the media - it's now a phased shutdown - not a hard cut off date - and others are getting appointments - weeks after the orginal Jun 30th date - in Aug in one relatives case - and that inside the plan in theory - one recent poster here was given Sep - hopefully theirs still within the planned dates)

I cannot find a 5196D manual - but the 5193D and the 5235D - are both external timer controlled - and I have seen one customer with a 5196D and an old eletromechanical clock on the Ovo forum - complaining about the times drifting.

Your Observations

Ill have another look at the other info on the bills - and times - but the rates you quoted as per the question above are before VAT - and one the split use segments figures seems to agree with the reworked calcs above.

I on a first read - think it looks like your meter and your off peak switching do not match.

Arguably the meter rates match the white label on that rts - or at least the start time of rate 2 at 00:29.

And the boost light doesn't agree with the meter rate and the RTS label.

(The label which I suspect is a funny way of saying 11:30 norminal to 06:30 nominal GMT default with the traditional +/-15 min preset if any value for anti demand spike / surge offset (a difference betwwen meters so that 100,000s of homes dont switch 10+kW of heating and hot water on simultaneously - and cause a grid dip / spike).

As I read the meter rate 1/2 indication flashes - they are switching BST 00:29 - 00:30 with 1/2 min offset and possibly then back maybe 07:29 DST - 07:30 possibly with a minute or so offset.

That was as expected from the label.

But the off peak supply appears to be switching completely differently 22:30 - actually outside the 10-9 GMT regional off peak window.  And does appear to be recording on rate 1 at peak rate - so defintely needs investigating.

Another Question from your timed observations

You did not say what rate - 1 or 2 - was flashing on meter at 0600 and 0731 observations (I would have hoped it might switch back at 07:30) - was that because it was still rate 2 and didnt switch back until closer to 10?

PS 1 Can you provide the model number - for that HW boost controller (I am assuming its some vairant on Horstman / Secure E7 series) - but cannot see an exact match ?

And if you can check the timing settings that get selected when you throw the switch from off to timed.

PS 2 E7 vs SR

Assuming niether of those registers has wrapped since install - the R2 may be close - that looks like a long term 60+% off peak ratio - so definitely in the E7 cheaper than SR camp.  

Thats an impressive dedication of times - and a severe lack of sleep - if all by one person. So pace yourself.

Hope things go OK at hospital.

Qyburn

So it's true, they're charging the low rate for daytime peak use,  and the high rate for off peak nighttime use.  That's going to be a killer in Winter once you're using the storage heaters.

PZ19

Why is the night rate so much higher than the day rate?  That looks like the wrong way round to me, you should ring them.

in my region EON next Flex tariff is 32.34p DAY and 14.42p NIGHT with Standing charge of 46.38p

tim_p

PZ19 said:

Why is the night rate so much higher than the day rate?  That looks like the wrong way round to me, you should ring them.

in my region EON next Flex tariff is 32.34p DAY and 14.42p NIGHT with Standing charge of 46.38p

Thought exactly the same thing - how is that normal?? Who would that be any use whatsoever for?

Scot_39

Qyburn said:

So it's true, they're charging the low rate for daytime peak use,  and the high rate for off peak nighttime use.  That's going to be a killer in Winter once you're using the storage heaters.

Not only that though the off peak supply - using the led on the hw controller - and obs water was heating - is out of sync - with the meter rates.

I wrote the above bit about 60% night looking at the fact rate 1 was active during the day (1005 and 2305 obs - assuming continuous between maybe a mistake) and rate 2 activating over night - sometime between the ops 2305 and 0029 observation - not as I misread and typed at 0029 above (maybe due to label(*)).

But the bills are doing the opposite.  Charging r1 as cheap rate 15p+VAT.

Which perversely giving the mismatch is actually charging 1st half hour at the correct rate for HW heating. But then would charge maybe hours of NSH use at wrong rate if active.  As it increments R2 by 2 overnight by 10:05 - but also R1 has incremented by 1 - so active before 10:05 (9:05GMT)

Its almost like their are two timers - one for tariff and one for off-peak switching.

  

I did worry their might be a second RTS somehow with cross wiring - but as I cannot find a definite 5196D manual - maybe my assumption that it is a slave to external timer is wrong (despite seeing one photo in an install with a mechanical timeswitch and others with RTSs online)

Its going to be difficult given a remote meter to check the meter regularly - but be nice to try and tie the meter rates switch down closer - to minimise maybe a visit earlier in the AM - maybe say around 730 / 8am am as per the RTS labelling - if possible (**).

(*) My though above was perhaps because of the RTS sticker - so maybe likely that the meter was following the white label on the RTS unit - so 11:30 to 06:30 GMT +/-15min swtiching offset (** so 00:30 - 07:30 DST +/-15 offset) so might have mistakenly latched onto the 00:29.

Google doesnt come up with a definite 5196D manual - but it is interesting that for others - like this user - 

https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/electric-meter-5196d-rate-2-remains-constant.205233/

R1 was working - R2 frozen - on an e7 labelled version - so arguably the default.  (Note no 5th wire obvious to select if it is a slave)

I found a 5193 Ampy series manual and it confirmed it's D model was an external timer rate selection - as per the 5235 - but it did refers to a 5194 series that had own internal time switch - but it didnt use the D suffix.

https://rdlmeters.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/5193A-User-Manual.pdf

So if anyone is better at tracking down old manuals - it would be great to know if 5196D is a time slave or time master for its rate selection.  Does odd /even model matter or does the D suffix (kind of my assumption to date) determine the charactestic.

Flagging up the rate error - might produce a bill demanding the c20p difference for last n weeks on the unit difference - or to be fairer a proportion of it.  

It does need fixing - but then so does the RTS.  

The OP gained a bit on HW billed at correct 15p - on rate r1 after 22:30 in his observations, but may equally have lost some billed overnight at R2 at 35p etc.  Its virtually impossible to correct the error accurately - and fear EOn would look for max recovery - a simple swap (another often overlooked advantage of smart meters 1/2 hourly logging is can be calculated if need be)

So given the whole set-up appears at least part RTS - might be best to concentrate on getting a meter upgrade before winter - and then make sure EOn bill day at day and night at night on the new meter.

And if its a large block (given 12 it could be) the OP might want to ask EOn to provide a dual band or potentially wired Alt Han install to get a working IHD in flat as well

Ildhund

Simelthwate said:

MPAN
The Meter Time-Switch Code is 811
Region Code is 16

Bit late to the party - sorry!
MTC 811 is one of the original 1996 Economy 7 codes, supported as far as I can see by all distributors. Its description is "NHH 7hr E7 GMT Non-Prog T/S" and its associated SSC is 0151. This SSC translates to TPRs 00043 and 00210:

SSC	TPR	Description	Name
151	43	Weekdays & Weekends 0000-0030, 0730-2400	Day
151	210	All days 0030-0730	Off Peak

This is what NORWEB will be using to bill E.On Next for the electricity passing through this meter, so it's in their interests as well as the customer's to get this right. 

Scot_39

Thanks @Ildhund

Even more confusion if those are as Id expect GMT time codes that stay GMT.

As that should then be 0130 to 0830 +/- 15min individual meter offset currently in DST/BST clock time

Including on the "NORWEB selected" times on label on the RTS.

Which states 11:15 to 11:45 pm start - which I assume is really GMT 11:30 pm - 06:30 am - plus/minus the old 15 min offset.

WiserMiser

It seems that your immersion heaters are not connected to a circuit that's switched by the meter: they use the Horstmann 7 timer (old version) instead.  That's a cheapo solution that can work well, but it's inherently risky.  The timer switches on the immersion heater when it thinks it's off-peak.  But be warned, if it hasn't been programmed correctly to your actual off-peak times (not what someone has told you they should be) or the clock isn't showing the correct time, your hot water will turn out to be super expensive.

To find out your off-peak times, just look at the little red lever at the bottom right of the black RTS unit (immediately above the 80A marking).  If it's pointing towards you horizontally, as in the photo, it's now at the peak rate.  It will drop down like a lower quadrant semaphore signal when the off-peak rate kicks in.  At the same moment the small digit in the meter's display will change from 1 to 2.  Those are the definitive times; beware that they may have changed from the times shown on the old paper label.  Note that in some areas the RTS can change to peak rate after two hours at off-peak, and then revert to off-peak two hours later.  So off-peak might be 2330-0130 and 0330-0830 BST.

Having established the exact ON and OFF times, you now need to program the Horstmann so that it turns on the red light next to the digital display and livens up the heater only during those off-peak times.  You could just use the times you've established from the RTS unit, but you probably won't need the full seven hours.  Try using only the last three hours and see how you get on.  Well insulated hot tanks don't leak much heat, but every little helps.

Have a look at the hot tank to confirm that there are two immersion heaters fitted.  There's usually one at the bottom which gives you a full tank that's heated overnight at the cheap E7 rate.  The one about halfway up should normally be left switched off (Horstmann white switch set to Off, Boost Selection slide switch set to Manual).  If you often run out of hot water during the day, make the start time a bit earlier.  If you occasionally run out of hot water during the day, press the Boost button to give half a tank of peak rate (= expensive) hot water.  The Boost button should be considered as being 'For Emergency Use Only', e.g. if you've had visitors taking full baths or long showers, or after returning from a holiday.