Fence ownership confusion

Boohoo

Do you have any photos of the disputed fence to put on here so forum users can get a better idea?

As for LP it's worth calling them just to see where you legally stand.

RAS

The fact that they've attached a panel to your extension is simply not acceptable, and evidence of their misunderstanding. It appears that in conversation they acknowledge the placement of the boundary but still assume they own and control the fence on your land? No amount of talking, tea and cakes or wine is going to change that.

People here are drilling you in ways to communicate that have already failed.

You do need to speak to your LP urgently. I also think that you need to stop talking to your neighbour other than hi or good day.

Tell them once verbally that you have been trying to discuss this matter amicably but they still do not seem to understand that what they did is wrong, so you will be writing to them. Advise them that if they have legal protection, they need to contact them

Do you have photos of the garden before you bought it? Any plans from when the extension was built? 

Either you, LP or a solicitor need to write to the neighbours with paper copies of the evidence, even if it's only the deeds. And ask that they provide paper copies of any additional evidence they have. Confirm that you wish to avoid a dispute, so you suggest they take legal advice but they are disrupting your ability to do planned work. Remind them that you have a right to access your own land and property to maintain it and had already been getting quotes for work when they moved in.

Explain that they have two options: 

Remove the panels within a timeframe and reinstate them on their own land, without any support from your building.
Allow the panels to remain on your land, accept payment and that you can do whatever you need to maintain your own property and anything on it.

It's important that you assert now that their interpretation is not an option.

sheramber

Are they really naive or are they being  devious and acting dumb, expecting you to get fed up and give in ?

You apparently have tried a gentle conversation but they are not listening to you. How many conversations are you prepared to have to get your point across?

They are happy to carry on as they want to and ignore your  pinpoint of view as it is getting them what they want.

You are the one doing all the work.  

They are sitting pretty repeating that it is their fence. 

The longer it goes on the more difficult it will become. 

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Wisteria21

sheramber said:

Are they really naive or are they being  devious and acting dumb, expecting you to get fed up and give in ?

If it's devious and acting dumb they are incredible actors. I think it is as simple as ex-neighbours ticked the wrong box by mistake on the TA6, and being ignorant of matters of this nature, the neighbours now think it is really their fence, and that I am quite mad. 

They've been good neighbours for years, until this issue, and I don't think they are trying to swindle me. I do think they believe I'm being weird and clearly mistaken, so I must be up to something, hence the change in attitude and protectiveness of the fence. 

I think if I can just show I am not myself trying to steal the fence or make life hard for them, and do own the fence it could be resolved, so that's my plan. 

Wisteria21

RAS said:

The fact that they've attached a panel to your extension is simply not acceptable, and evidence of their misunderstanding. It appears that in conversation they acknowledge the placement of the boundary but still assume they own and control the fence on your land? No amount of talking, tea and cakes or wine is going to change that.

They haven't themselves attached anything, all they've done so far are change the fence panels. The gravel boards and posts were untouched, and it is the posts that are connected to my structures. Hopefully that make it a bit clearer. I will eventually need to touch those, but I think they just wanted some nice new panels, didn't realize they didn't own the fence, and this is as nefarious as it gets. 

I think it might help to show them my evidence in a nice way, which comprises the deeds, a diagram showing how onto my land the fence is and old photographs to prove it's always matched our side, not theirs. This is because the problem as I understand it is they don't know what their house deeds actually comprise or the law on such matters, and have otherwise until now seemed entirely reasonable people. However, they are now anxious about this fence and what I might do to it, and I don't want them to feel I'm out to get them. 

I couldn't work out why they thought their deeds said they owned the fence and wanted to double check all my own facts before formally setting my evidence out and asking for written evidence of theirs, but looking at what I could gather, I've worked out that if they do have a document about the fence that isn't the deeds it must be the TA6. 

I'm going to suggest they double check everything I have gathered as evidence and my explanations. My hope is this might resolve things. Especially as if it gets them to take advice to try to escalate this or look online etc they will find they don't have a leg to stand on, but hopefull they will also recall that I have been nice and said we can walk this back. I also don't think it would hurt to let them know I have LP and I'm willing to follow this up if needed so I can do the work I need to in peace, just incase they are trying to pull a fast one. 

Boohoo

Wisteria21 said:

RAS said:

The fact that they've attached a panel to your extension is simply not acceptable, and evidence of their misunderstanding. It appears that in conversation they acknowledge the placement of the boundary but still assume they own and control the fence on your land? No amount of talking, tea and cakes or wine is going to change that.

They haven't themselves attached anything, all they've done so far are change the fence panels. The gravel boards and posts were untouched, and it is the posts that are connected to my structures. Hopefully that make it a bit clearer. I will eventually need to touch those, but I think they just wanted some nice new panels, didn't realize they didn't own the fence, and this is as nefarious as it gets. 

I think it might help to show them my evidence in a nice way, which comprises the deeds, a diagram showing how onto my land the fence is and old photographs to prove it's always matched our side, not theirs. This is because the problem as I understand it is they don't know what their house deeds actually comprise or the law on such matters, and have otherwise until now seemed entirely reasonable people. However, they are now anxious about this fence and what I might do to it, and I don't want them to feel I'm out to get them. 

I couldn't work out why they thought their deeds said they owned the fence and wanted to double check all my own facts before formally setting my evidence out and asking for written evidence of theirs, but looking at what I could gather, I've worked out that if they do have a document about the fence that isn't the deeds it must be the TA6. 

I'm going to suggest they double check everything I have gathered as evidence and my explanations. My hope is this might resolve things. Especially as if it gets them to take advice to try to escalate this or look online etc they will find they don't have a leg to stand on, but hopefull they will also recall that I have been nice and said we can walk this back. I also don't think it would hurt to let them know I have LP and I'm willing to follow this up if needed so I can do the work I need to in peace, just incase they are trying to pull a fast one. 

So the old fence, gravel boards and post's are in the same place they have been for years and I assume when you moved into the place?

They changed the panels and now there is an issue?

Why did you not do anything about the fence being in the wrong place before all this started?

If you were aware of this before then sorry I must have missed it in your post's on here.

I don't think you will get back the relationship you had before with your neighbours so you might as well go down the LP/court route and get the fence sorted and then you can get on with your life without this hassle.

WIAWSNB

Wisteria21 said:

RAS said:

The fact that they've attached a panel to your extension is simply not acceptable, and evidence of their misunderstanding. It appears that in conversation they acknowledge the placement of the boundary but still assume they own and control the fence on your land? No amount of talking, tea and cakes or wine is going to change that.

They haven't themselves attached anything, all they've done so far are change the fence panels. The gravel boards and posts were untouched, and it is the posts that are connected to my structures. Hopefully that make it a bit clearer. I will eventually need to touch those, but I think they just wanted some nice new panels, didn't realize they didn't own the fence, and this is as nefarious as it gets. 

I think it might help to show them my evidence in a nice way, which comprises the deeds, a diagram showing how onto my land the fence is and old photographs to prove it's always matched our side, not theirs. This is because the problem as I understand it is they don't know what their house deeds actually comprise or the law on such matters, and have otherwise until now seemed entirely reasonable people. However, they are now anxious about this fence and what I might do to it, and I don't want them to feel I'm out to get them. 

I couldn't work out why they thought their deeds said they owned the fence and wanted to double check all my own facts before formally setting my evidence out and asking for written evidence of theirs, but looking at what I could gather, I've worked out that if they do have a document about the fence that isn't the deeds it must be the TA6. 

I'm going to suggest they double check everything I have gathered as evidence and my explanations. My hope is this might resolve things. Especially as if it gets them to take advice to try to escalate this or look online etc they will find they don't have a leg to stand on, but hopefull they will also recall that I have been nice and said we can walk this back. I also don't think it would hurt to let them know I have LP and I'm willing to follow this up if needed so I can do the work I need to in peace, just incase they are trying to pull a fast one. 

If you have LegProt, then absolutely call them for advice and guidance. It's free. 
It won't mean an escalation or anything like that, but you do need to know the correct approach.
And in any case where you may need to have them act for you in future if it does escalate at any point, it is very important that you demonstrate you have done the 'correct' thing at all times leading up to this.

sheramber

Boohoo said:

Wisteria21 said:

RAS said:

The fact that they've attached a panel to your extension is simply not acceptable, and evidence of their misunderstanding. It appears that in conversation they acknowledge the placement of the boundary but still assume they own and control the fence on your land? No amount of talking, tea and cakes or wine is going to change that.

They haven't themselves attached anything, all they've done so far are change the fence panels. The gravel boards and posts were untouched, and it is the posts that are connected to my structures. Hopefully that make it a bit clearer. I will eventually need to touch those, but I think they just wanted some nice new panels, didn't realize they didn't own the fence, and this is as nefarious as it gets. 

I think it might help to show them my evidence in a nice way, which comprises the deeds, a diagram showing how onto my land the fence is and old photographs to prove it's always matched our side, not theirs. This is because the problem as I understand it is they don't know what their house deeds actually comprise or the law on such matters, and have otherwise until now seemed entirely reasonable people. However, they are now anxious about this fence and what I might do to it, and I don't want them to feel I'm out to get them. 

I couldn't work out why they thought their deeds said they owned the fence and wanted to double check all my own facts before formally setting my evidence out and asking for written evidence of theirs, but looking at what I could gather, I've worked out that if they do have a document about the fence that isn't the deeds it must be the TA6. 

I'm going to suggest they double check everything I have gathered as evidence and my explanations. My hope is this might resolve things. Especially as if it gets them to take advice to try to escalate this or look online etc they will find they don't have a leg to stand on, but hopefull they will also recall that I have been nice and said we can walk this back. I also don't think it would hurt to let them know I have LP and I'm willing to follow this up if needed so I can do the work I need to in peace, just incase they are trying to pull a fast one. 

So the old fence, gravel boards and post's are in the same place they have been for years and I assume when you moved into the place?

They changed the panels and now there is an issue?

Why did you not do anything about the fence being in the wrong place before all this started?

If you were aware of this before then sorry I must have missed it in your post's on here.

I don't think you will get back the relationship you had before with your neighbours so you might as well go down the LP/court route and get the fence sorted and then you can get on with your life without this hassle.

Have you read the whole thread/

The OP wa/is  not concerned about the fence 'being in the wrong place'.

The neighbours have decided that they own the fence and have told the OP he is not allowed to do anything to the fence or attach anything to the fence.

It is not the OP that had any problem with the fence.

He did offer to pay for the panels but the neighbour refused any payment.

brianposter

Why not simply drop a note in saying "My deeds indicate that I own the fence. Please could you show me the documents that lead you to believe otherwise."

WIAWSNB

brianposter said:

Why not simply drop a note in saying "My deeds indicate that I own the fence. Please could you show me the documents that lead you to believe otherwise."

Because it isn't correct - the deeds say nowt. And, it would have zero effect even if true - the neighb is not for listening.
The facts on the literal ground are indisputable - this fence lies fully on the OP's land, so the neighbour's panels are trespassing.
What's more, the previous panels belonged to the OP, so the neighbour - through ignorance - technically committed a crime, 'theft' or 'trespass with criminal property damage'. (Having said that, it wasn't intentional, and they weren't aware, so not really 'criminal', but more civil.)
Nothing else overrules this, not the deeds, and not an incorrect note in the TA6.
The OP could sue them for the loss of their own panels, and would most likely win. Or, the OP could simply remove the neighb's panels and return them to them, following the correct protocol.
I'd suggest that these two solutions are not in the OP's nature, and amen to that.
However, the OP should also not be compromised in any way by the neighbour's silly actions going forwards, and the neighbour does need to be told the facts of the situation, so they don't continue to think they are in the right, or it'll always be an issue.
So, yes, they need to be told, in a recordable manner. And the OP's 'acceptance' of these panels should include the simple provisos that (a) it's for as long as they choose, and (b) the panels are considered, in all practical ways, as being the OP's. Ie, Wistie can paint, modify, hang objects, or remove it as and when required, just as they could with their old panels. If the neighb doesn't like this, they can remove their panels.
So, when it comes to patio repair time, the OP should inform their neighbour that they will be removing panels to allow this work on the Xth, "in case they need to secure any animals within their garden, or wish to maintain their privacy".
Not ask, but inform. The patio builders could do this removal as part of the job.
The neighbour can blow up as much as they want, including calling the police - they'd get nowhere, and the sizeable amount of egg on their faces should teach them a lesson.