Fence ownership confusion

UnsureAboutthis

Look for the T

THIS will IMO help you prepare and or be educated who owns what - get you address checked as well

https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register

NB: I have just noted the price per search has rocketed massively from 3 pounds to 7 quid, but still worth a look IMO

grumpy_codger

Wisteria21 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Wisteria21 said:

...

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. ...

Ask them to show where the deeds say this, but if they mean a 'T' mark on the title plan, this mark doesn't indicate the ownership.

....

This is why I want to know if the TA6 is relevant in this instance, where other evidence disagrees with it. 

How can it be relevant if it's filled by the seller, not even by a solicitor?

The seller is only obliged to give answers based on their own information. They may not have knowledge of legal or technical matters. 

sheramber

Ask them to show you where they find that the fence is their’s. 

kimwp

Sounds like they are confusing the words boundary and fence.

Wisteria21

UnsureAboutthis said:

Look for the T

THIS will IMO help you prepare and or be educated who owns what - get you address checked as well

NB: I have just noted the price per search has rocketed massively from 3 pounds to 7 quid, but still worth a look IMO

First thing I did when they said it was in their deeds was to check them, exactly as you have suggested and unfortunately for £14 total! The deeds (Title Plan and Title Register) say nothing about boundaries, at all. No T marks, just a very basic picture of two symmetrical houses, on a road lined with symmetrical houses, and a line straight down the mid point between them without deviation. 

I just want to be able to establish with the neighbours (and for myself) that what they are talking about, while I think a real document, isn't their deeds, as the deeds for both properties just show we are right about the fence being on our side of the boundary. That whatever document they are talking about doesn't mean they own the fence, so they can't legally tell us not to interact with the fence.

I intend to tell them I don't care what they do with it on their side and I'll pay for the panels as a peace offering, but to please stop trying to police the fence because they shouldn't have done anything to it themselves in the first place, but in as nice a way as I can come up with. 

grumpy_codger

kimwp said:

Sounds like they are confusing the words boundary and fence.

A boundary can't be owned.

UnsureAboutthis

Wisteria21 said:

UnsureAboutthis said:

Look for the T

THIS will IMO help you prepare and or be educated who owns what - get you address checked as well

NB: I have just noted the price per search has rocketed massively from 3 pounds to 7 quid, but still worth a look IMO

First thing I did when they said it was in their deeds was to check them, exactly as you have suggested and unfortunately for £14 total! The deeds (Title Plan and Title Register) say nothing about boundaries, at all. No T marks, just a very basic picture of two symmetrical houses, on a road lined with symmetrical houses, and a line straight down the mid point between them without deviation. 

I just want to be able to establish with the neighbours (and for myself) that what they are talking about, while I think a real document, isn't their deeds, as the deeds for both properties just show we are right about the fence being on our side of the boundary. That whatever document they are talking about doesn't mean they own the fence, so they can't legally tell us not to interact with the fence.

I intend to tell them I don't care what they do with it on their side and I'll pay for the panels as a peace offering, but to please stop trying to police the fence because they shouldn't have done anything to it themselves in the first place, but in as nice a way as I can come up with. 

You sound like a really good person/neighbour. I hope it can be sorted quickly as I can't imagine the stress/etc

I'm sure you have checked but do the deeds stating anything like "looking from the road, the right/left side of your fence."

If the other houses have the same layout of fences etc - possibly speak to someone you can trust about who they think owns which fence and why.

Good luck.

Wisteria21

grumpy_codger said:

Wisteria21 said:

grumpy_codger said:

Wisteria21 said:

...

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. ...

Ask them to show where the deeds say this, but if they mean a 'T' mark on the title plan, this mark doesn't indicate the ownership.

....

This is why I want to know if the TA6 is relevant in this instance, where other evidence disagrees with it. 

How can it be relevant if it's filled by the seller, not even by a solicitor?

The seller is only obliged to give answers based on their own information. They may not have knowledge of legal or technical matters. 

Thank you, sorry if I'm asking odd questions. This all seems so obvious to me as well and they are so adamant I am wrong I am starting to wonder if I have missed something. 

There isn't anything on the deeds about the boundaries, no wording no marks. However, I know our neighbours, and from how they spoke I am certain they really believe that their deeds say they own the fence. 

I know the deeds suggest nothing of the sort, so I have guessed they must mean the TA6 form. I didn't think this was 'the deeds' or proved ownership, only that it might allow for legal recourse if the information was incorrect, against the person the property was purchased from if they lied. 

This was the only possible explanation or loophole I could think of, so I wanted to check I was right. I think I might need to refer them to some information to explain to back this up, so this quote is very helpful. 

Wisteria21

UnsureAboutthis said:

Wisteria21 said:

UnsureAboutthis said:

Look for the T

THIS will IMO help you prepare and or be educated who owns what - get you address checked as well

NB: I have just noted the price per search has rocketed massively from 3 pounds to 7 quid, but still worth a look IMO

First thing I did when they said it was in their deeds was to check them, exactly as you have suggested and unfortunately for £14 total! The deeds (Title Plan and Title Register) say nothing about boundaries, at all. No T marks, just a very basic picture of two symmetrical houses, on a road lined with symmetrical houses, and a line straight down the mid point between them without deviation. 

I just want to be able to establish with the neighbours (and for myself) that what they are talking about, while I think a real document, isn't their deeds, as the deeds for both properties just show we are right about the fence being on our side of the boundary. That whatever document they are talking about doesn't mean they own the fence, so they can't legally tell us not to interact with the fence.

I intend to tell them I don't care what they do with it on their side and I'll pay for the panels as a peace offering, but to please stop trying to police the fence because they shouldn't have done anything to it themselves in the first place, but in as nice a way as I can come up with. 

You sound like a really good person/neighbour. I hope it can be sorted quickly as I can't imagine the stress/etc

I'm sure you have checked but do the deeds stating anything like "looking from the road, the right/left side of your fence."

If the other houses have the same layout of fences etc - possibly speak to someone you can trust about who they think owns which fence and why.

Good luck.

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say. It's not pleasant to feel we need to be careful going into our own garden or might be watched, but I doubt the situation is pleasant for our neighbours, either. They are normally very nice but they are also very house proud and I think they are reacting as they are because from their perspective they have an official document stating they own the fence. They don't know what I am up to saying this isn't true and that the fence is ours, but they clearly feel that it is very suspicious and they don't want me to ruin their brand new fencing. 

I've checked the deeds and asked someone else to look as well, in case I missed something, but they are very simple. They state that the owners own x address, and that this comprises of the land outlined in red on the title plan. The title plan shows a very basic map and there is a section of it that's outlined in red that matches our understanding of the boundaries. 

There are some covenants as well, but boundaries/fences are not mentioned. The covenants are exactly the same as those on our deeds and say that the original owner/builder has a right to any coal found on the land, and to access drains if they build more houses on land they still own, with a more recent addition from the 90s from the council forbidding opening a business that involves professionally operating large machinery. Otherwise, that's it. 

Most of our other neighbours are very elderly, and I'd feel bad dragging them into this as I am sure it would make them very anxious and they themselves may not know anything about the fence or old boundaries. 

UnsureAboutthis

Ok, thanks.
As others have said, ask to see the "evidence" and then this can be closed.