Fence ownership confusion

Wisteria21

Hello,

I have a question about fence ownership. Our neighbours seem to think they own the fence between our semi-detached houses. We found out after they replaced the fence panels, changing the style. We’ve lived here longer and always thought the fence was ours because it’s built on our side of the property boundary and matched other fencing that could only belong to us as there isn’t a neighbour on that side. The buildings are symmetrical and the decorative brickwork along with paint/render lines make the boundary obvious, so I never expected this to be an issue.

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. Our houses are very old and there’s nothing about boundary responsibilities on either set of deeds, but the deeds do seem to show the houses are symmetrical and the boundary is half way between them, meaning we own the land the fence is on. It doesn’t seem likely to me that someone would build a fence to perfectly match another neighbour's fencing but not their own, on the neighbour's land, but I also don’t think our neighbours are trying to pull a fast one. They seem to me to really believe the fence is theirs.

We aren’t sure what to do about this, but is there anything else I can check or is this as clear cut as fence ownership could get? This has really confused me and I can only think our old neighbours might have accidently put the wrong information on the TA6.

Would something like the TA6 have any relevance if the fence is on our land and looks like other fencing we own, even built into and on other structures on our side (extension and patio)?

sheramber

Explain to your neighbour where the boundary is and that the fence is situated inside your boundary . So is your fence.

The original fence, which they are responsible for, appears to have been removed but they are at liberty to erect their own fence , on the boundary, if they so wish. 

pretamang

what outcome are you looking for?
do you want them to change the fence panels back to the original style, were they damaged and would you have been happy to pay for them if it's established that you own the fence?

flaneurs_lobster

Is the new fence horrible? Have they stolen a large chunk of your land? Otherwise just look at it as a new free fence.

Wisteria21

flaneurs_lobster said:

Is the new fence horrible? Have they stolen a large chunk of your land? Otherwise just look at it as a new free fence.

This was originally our attitude and I wouldn't normally worry about such things. I went round when the panels were being changed, explained I thought the fences were ours because they were on our land and offered to pay for the panels they had put in as they couldn't put the old ones back, they had been cut up. I thought that was reasonable and hoped it would avoid a dispute. 

They were hesitant to take anything from us,  and I didn't push it, but they are now saying we must not touch 'their' fence without their permission. They are very concerned about us painting the panels or how we paint them etc. I've never been like this with fences myself so I find this difficult to navigate. I've also realized that the fences are built into and onto other structures we had planned to work on. We'd need to lift and adjust the fence posts, gravel board and panels to get to sort out our patio as the ones under the fence have started to lift, creating a hazard, and the fence is attached to an extension we need to work on.

Because they are getting so worried about far simpler things I am concerned this could lead to bigger issues for us than unexpectedly having the panels swapped for new ones if we don't clarify things now. 

WIAWSNB

Wisteria21 said:

Hello,

I have a question about fence ownership. Our neighbours seem to think they own the fence between our semi-detached houses. We found out after they replaced the fence panels, changing the style. We’ve lived here longer and always thought the fence was ours because it’s built on our side of the property boundary and matched other fencing that could only belong to us as there isn’t a neighbour on that side. The buildings are symmetrical and the decorative brickwork along with paint/render lines make the boundary obvious, so I never expected this to be an issue.

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. Our houses are very old and there’s nothing about boundary responsibilities on either set of deeds, but the deeds do seem to show the houses are symmetrical and the boundary is half way between them, meaning we own the land the fence is on. It doesn’t seem likely to me that someone would build a fence to perfectly match another neighbour's fencing but not their own, on the neighbour's land, but I also don’t think our neighbours are trying to pull a fast one. They seem to me to really believe the fence is theirs.

We aren’t sure what to do about this, but is there anything else I can check or is this as clear cut as fence ownership could get? This has really confused me and I can only think our old neighbours might have accidently put the wrong information on the TA6.

Would something like the TA6 have any relevance if the fence is on our land and looks like other fencing we own, even built into and on other structures on our side (extension and patio)?

As you have said, with a symmetrical semi-detached (or terraced) house, it is usually very easy indeed to determine where the 'exact' boundary line lies; it's as you say. Double-check that the markings you have described haven't changed - eg, a painted facade hasn't moved beyond the line. If the houses are identical, then measurements from, say, the nearest windows should help determine where the two houses 'join'. That's your boundary.

Anything on your side of that invisible boundary line is yours, and ditto for them. Anything on or straddling that line is 'party' or shared, and you both have a say; that internal separating wall, for example.

These are the facts, regardless of what the deeds say. For instance, if the deeds state, in writing, that the boundary or fence is your 'responsibility' to maintain, but the physical fence is clearly on their side of this 'line', then it ain't your fence. Or, it could be 'your' fence if you paid for it, but it's 'trespassing'!

I gather, from what you have described - "it’s built on our side of the property boundary" - that this fence is either the neighbour's fence which is 'trespassing' on your land (ie, the neighbour put it there), or - more likely - it is your fence 100%, and 100% on your land. In which case, your neighbour sounds confused.

Regardless of the above, since this fence is clearly on your side of the line, then they shouldn't have touched it, and shouldn't have replaced it without your permission - it is your land. They have trespassed.

In the absence of any contradictory info - now't in t'deeds, and no previous vendor to tell you both who put that fence in, it is safe to assume that the fence was yours, as it sat on your side of the land.

Ergo, your neighbs have done wrong.

From what you suggest, they are not 'bad' people, and also aren't trying to pull a fast one. But, they are mistaken, and should be told.  

As with other replies, get clear in your head what it is you want, and how far you are prepared to go to get it. I'd hope that you are actually quite chilled about it all, and can accept the new fence provided they are a wee bit contrite? Because, if you really wanted to, you could remove all their panels and leave them on their lawn. And then sue them for the destruction of your old fence.

But really best not to.

What I would suggest is a nice, smiley approach, asking to have a chat. And you have your phone surreptitiously set to 'record' whilst you do so. Best to use the 'questioning' approach...

"Hi. The new fence - could you explain why you think it's 'yours'?" 

"Uh-huh. Do you know where the actual boundary line is between our houses? Yes - it's right there, in the exact middle of where our two houses join."

"Who owns everything on your side of this line? You do indeed, 'cos it would be weird if I owned anything on your side, wouldn't it? Coooool. So, where is this fence sitting in relation to that line? Ummmm, good try - but you need Specsavers. Good! Well done! Yes, the line is there, and the fence you messed with is just on my side of that line! See?!"

Ok, remove as much patronising inflection as required, but hopefully you get the gist.

Do not get involved in an argument or 'discussion' - just keep asking questions, based on the location of the line.

If they had wanted a different style of fence, then there are two scenarios they should have followed; one was to ask you for permission to replace the existing one in the same location 'cos you own the land, and the other is to have placed their new fence fully on their side of this line. They shouldn't have touched the fence that's on your land.

Ok, another scenario is that you agree the new fence between you, each pay halves, and place it on the line - 'party'.  

What condition was the old fence in? What did they replace - panels only, or the whole caboodle?

As you say, they almost certainly just got it wrong, but they should accept the facts. 

Wisteria21

pretamang said:

what outcome are you looking for?
do you want them to change the fence panels back to the original style, were they damaged and would you have been happy to pay for them if it's established that you own the fence?

I would like them to not to shout at me about the fence, through the fence, or to be territorial about a fence which is not even theirs, as far as I can tell, so that's the wider context. They don't want us to do anything to it of any kind without their permission. I've never been like this myself do I don't understand, but I thought the quickest way to deal with this was probably to establish if the fences is ours, and yes, pay them for the panels, maybe pop round with the evidence and a bottle of wine. 

I'd let it go entirely but we need to work on structures the fence is attached to, like our extension wall and the patio. There are tiles lifting up where the fences panels rest on top of it, for example. To correct that we'd need to lift the panels, for instance. I am worried if I let it go now I'm just saving up more issues for later. 

grumpy_codger

Wisteria21 said:

...

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. ...

Ask them to show where the deeds say this, but if they mean a 'T' mark on the title plan, this mark doesn't indicate the ownership.

Wisteria21

grumpy_codger said:

Wisteria21 said:

...

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. ...

Ask them to show where the deeds say this, but if they mean a 'T' mark on the title plan, this mark doesn't indicate the ownership.

I already have a copy of both sets of deeds. Their deeds mirror ours and I expect every house along our street (all the same style and age). If anything the deeds show that we own the land the fence is built upon. In the past it looks like all the houses had walls build down from the midline, as some houses still have them. Our fence is obviously set to one side of where there was likely once a shared boundary wall. 

There is no ambiguity with the boundary location from my perspective, though I have started to doubt myself. If anything their side is painted and rendered over a bit onto ours at an angle from some of the decorative brickwork and unrendered brick. This is because the fence is set over on our side, and it would look odd otherwise. 

I just don't think they believe that being on our land makes a difference if it says in their 'deeds' that they own the fence, but I think what happened is that they are referring to some other document that is not their deeds, and they don't know this yet, probably the TA6. 

This is why I want to know if the TA6 is relevant in this instance, where other evidence disagrees with it. 

Wisteria21

grumpy_codger said:

Wisteria21 said:

...

They say the deeds stat they own the fence. ...

Ask them to show where the deeds say this, but if they mean a 'T' mark on the title plan, this mark doesn't indicate the ownership.

Forgot to clearly state: there are no marks or mention of boundaries of any kind. The houses are over 100 years old and the gardens are more like yards that probably used to all have shared walls all the way around. Most of those are gone but some houses still have them, or some version of them. Our fence is clearly to one side of the original boundary feature. 

We know the fence on the other side belongs to our other neighbours because it is just to their side of where the old wall would be. 

michael1234

flaneurs_lobster said:

Is the new fence horrible? Have they stolen a large chunk of your land? Otherwise just look at it as a new free fence.

I don't think the neighbours should be stealing any amount of land.