Fence ownership confusion

WIAWSNB

Hi Wistie.

Please reread my previous post if necessary to understand the boundary and land ownership. In your situation, it should be unambiguous.

To summarise; you know where the true boundary line lies with considerable accuracy - one of the few benefits of being semi or terraced. Everything fixed on your side of that line is yours, and vicky verka. No-one should touch anything on the other person's land without the owner's express permission.

The only way your neighbour can have 'their' fence on your land is (a) you have given them permission (and you'll retain the right to ask them to remove it at any point), or (b) if done without permission, it's trespass (and technically criminal property damage if they dug holes on your land). 

I hope that's clear. That is the situation regardless of anything else that follows.

Then there are the deeds. Many do state which boundaries are the owner's 'responsibility'. Many do not. To have any credibility, the boundary lines are usually marked with 'T' shapes, but these are legally meaningless unless accompanied by a written statement in the deeds to confirm their meaning. In any event, unless the deeds covenant that physical boundaries 'must' be maintained by a particular homeowner, and the author of that covenant is still in a position to enforce this (eg, still alive, and is bovvered), there is actually nothing one homeowner can do to force a neighbour to put up a fence (unless it's to secure their own animals, for example). Fences are 99.9% done as a courtesy - and because we all usually want our privacy, and boundaries demarcated.

In your case, there is seemingly no mention of boundary or fence responsibilities at all in the deeds? So almost certainly all the existing fences were put up either following an agreed convention, such as all properties on that street choosing 'the one on the right' to look after, or they just ended up that way randomly. But, they belong to whoever's land they sit on (as explained above). 

Also, if anyone says "I ain't putting up a fence", then they cannot be forced to (unless they have wild animals or kids that need corralling). That means the other party will need to put up a fence if they want one, fair or not, and it must be on their own side of the boundary.

That leaves the TA6. That is a document filled out by the vendor, to the best of their knowledge. In practice, very few points are worthy of challenge, except things like them failing to admit they knew their extension required Planning/Build Control, or if they failed to declare a dispute with a neighbour, or reneged on the fixtures list. And the vendor would have had to clearly fib, or do so by omission, before any action could be considered. 

If a vendor - the previous owner of your house, or the ditto for your neighbour's - filled out the TA6 in good faith, following the understood protocol for the fence responsibility, but got it wrong, then it ain't a biggie. I repeat; no-one has to put up a fence - it's just a nice thing to do. If someone declares, "I've always looked after the fence on the right", it doesn't mean the new owner also has to. It would be unneighbourly not to, of course, but we all know neighbours are a mixed bunch (says the cove who's just reported his to the council for the second time...)

Ok, you've added more details, such as this neighbour actually being a bit of an entitled twit - as well as being wrong? 

I would repeat what I said before - tackle this in a friendly, gritted-teeth, way, but by asking a series of questions, beginning with 'where's the boundary?!' Once they acknowledge that, then it's, 'so where does this fence sit in relation to that line?' If you can get them to agree these two points, then hopefully you are half way there. Qs like, 'so, if you reckon you can put your fence on my side of the boundary, why can't I put my fence on your side of it?' 
When the point is reached where they dig their heels in, clarify what that specific issue is - repeat it; "Are you saying, then, that this fence is yours even tho' you acknowledge it's clearly on my land?" "Uh-huh." "Ok, could I suggest that we both Google the answer to that - or ask your LP or solicitor if you prefer - and we compare answers in a couple of day's time?" 

See how that goes.

Bottom line, if they still don't budge, then I think I'd probably let it lie - but I'd state very clearly they are mistaken, and that you are 'allowing' their fence to stay there for the moment, just because that's where the old fence was positioned. But, it is 'trespassing'. And you record all this.

It's an annoying one, as you will obviously wish to follow the letter of the law. That means that the physical fence materials are theirs - they paid for it - but it's trespassing on your land! That means you shouldn't do anything to it, as it's owned by them  But, neither should they, as they'd be trespassing again to touch 'their' fence!

Remember - record all this, so you'll have evidence that you informed them of the facts, and that you are 'allowing' them to have it on your land for the time being.

Ultimately, you can physically remove it and give it back to them, but that's the nuclear option. There are some folk who would do this with pleasure, and they would almost certainly get away with it if done 'respectfully'; ie notice is given, allowing them the opportunity to remove it first by X date, and - if they fail - it's removed as carefully as is practical, and deposited - carefully - on their land. I believe no-one would be able to legally prevent this from happening or challenge it; one glance, and it's obvious where the true boundary lies. 

WIAWSNB

Forgot to ask - do you have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

Wisteria21

WIAWSNB said:

Forgot to ask - do you have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

Yes, we do and I'm wondering if I should speak to my insurers before doing anything else. I was going to pop round with a bottle of wine and a letter showing the deed information, also to confirm we would like to pay them some money, as otherwise we wouldn't have any evidence of payment if it's done via cash. 

Wisteria21

WIAWSNB said:

hat I said before - tackle this in a friendly, gritted-teeth, way, but by asking a series of questions, beginning with 'where's the boundary?!' Once they acknowledge that, then it's, 'so where does this fence sit in relation to that line?' If you can get them to agree these two points, then hopefully you are half way there. Qs like, 'so, if you reckon you can put your fence on my side of the boundary, why can't I put my fence on your side of it?' 

Thank you, I have found your responses very helpful. 

Unfortunately, I've tried a similar verbal approach a few times. I don't think they dispute the boundary line, they just don't think it matters because they think it says in their deeds they own the fence. Part of why I have found this so difficult is they don't have the basic knowledge necessary to know the fence can't possibly be theirs. 

Basically it goes:

Me: I'm still a bit confused, could you explain why you think the fence is yours? We've always thought it was ours, and it looks to me as if it's on our side of the property boundary, does it not look that way to you? 

Them: We own the fence because it's in out deeds. 

Me: Oh, that's odd because it does seem to be on our land, and there isn't anything about fence ownership in our deeds, are you sure there is in your deeds? 

Them: We told you it's in our deeds. 

Just on repeat, with increasing annoyance on their part, which isn't really helpful in terms of neighbourly relations. 

Wisteria21

WIAWSNB said:

"SHOW ME YOUR BLUDY DEEDS, YOU MORON"?

Indeed, hence my plan for a letter with images and quotes from said deeds, saying we just want to work out who owns the fence, but unless we've missed something, the deeds just seem to show the fence belongs to us. Could the provide evidence of ownership?

I intend to add at that if we do own the fence then we want to pay for the panels. No worries about what they do on their side, we just want it resolved for good neighbourly relations, with the implication also being they stop being weird about a couple of fence panels they should never have touched in the first place. 

WIAWSNB

The physical panels they replaced belong to them. But they trespassed on to your land to fit them. And, they technically stole your panels in the process. 
You have the choice of what to do about them. Either allow them to remain - give them recorded 'permission' - or insist they go. That's it. Keep it that simple. 
For the former, you can add provisos; "I give you permission to leave these panels in place on my land, on condition I can treat them fully as if my own - eg paint them as I wish. Hang items on them. Grow plants up them. Whatevs." "You don't like that? Fine, take them away..."
You don't need to prove anything, they do. The boundary line is your friend. 
If you physically removed them and plonked them back on their drive, there is nothing they could do about it. They'd have to prove they have the right to go back on to your land - and obviously they'd completely fail.
Think of it in these simple terms.
You've told us the deeds say nowt. Even if they did say summat, what do you think it could be? It certainly won't be, "they can plonk their fence on your land, and tell you not to touch it". Nope.
This is bonkers!
Consider an equivalent - I dunno, say a rotary clothes drier... You buy one, and plonk it in their garden. How do you reckon that will pan out? Or, they plant a tree in your flower border?

Q - what outcome do you want?

sheramber

If you want to give them a bottle of wine or some other gift , do it after the fence ownership is settled, not before. 

Giving it now would make it look like a bribe,. 

Wisteria21

WIAWSNB said:

Q - what outcome do you want?

That when I need to lift up the fence panels that they have put on my patio, so I can relay my raised patio tiles, it doesn't start world war three. The fence is also attached to my extension, and I'm planning to re-render my house. I might need to move or adjust one end of the fence for this. The fence I have been told not to touch?

If they were chill about the fence and just got confused, no problem. A bit annoying the panels don't quite match my other panels anymore but I could live with it, no need to post here. But they aren't chill about it, and actually I think even if they did own the panels they've being needlessly restrictive in a way no other neighbour I have had has been. If I were to leave this matter now, I think I would have a bigger reaction from them later, and we aren't talking that much later, as I had been getting quotes for the work before all this started. I really need to do this work on the property, too, so at some point soon the matter of the fence needs to be resolved, and surely better now than letting the neighbours think I agree the fence is theirs and this is over, then unexpectedly doing things they would forbid? I can already hear the shouting and I think it could lead to a permanent break down in our relationship. 

So, while I appreciate I have asked for advice on my legal position and I likely don't legally need to explain anything, and I could legally likely get away with placing the fence panels into their garden, I don't see it getting me what I want. It seems an honest mistake, so I think there is a chance this can be amicably resolved. They just seem very particular (their home and garden are prefect) and to follow the letter of things as they understand them, which I think could work in my favour if I go in with the right attitude. I just wanted to be sure of my position before doing anything else. I'd rather not do what I think they are doing, and be confidently wrong.

If nothing else, I think addressing this nicely and trying to explain in a letter, with pictures, is worth a try as long as it wouldn't invalidate support from my insurer, should the matter escalate.

If I thought they were doing it knowingly or maliciously that would be a different matter, and I'd go straight to my insurer. I worry if I do this in this instance, where the relationship may still be salvageable, it could push something towards further escalation that really doesn't need to be a big deal.  

Wisteria21

sheramber said:

Giving it now would make it look like a bribe,. 

This surprises me, for a fence I am arguing I already own, and obviously do once you've looked at the actual deeds and know that the deeds are? And surely offering to pay for the panels would have the same issue?

I just want to try to lower the animosity level, and just say look, I've double checked my information and I think fence is ours and here's why (letter, pictures and texts from deed, old photos showing before they moved and that it's build into my structures). Can you disprove my ownership? If you can, I will of course apologise for any stress I have caused you, but can you show me evidence? If the fence is mine, (which it is) I will gladly pay for the panels as you can't put the old ones back, and it saves everyone a lot of hassle. You still get the panels you want, do what you like on your side, and I get to (hopefully) move on with my life and planned work on my house without obstruction. Oh, and either way you get the wine, as a peace offering, because until now we've always gotten along and I don't want to fall out over this petty nonsense, but imagine this worded a lot more gently. 

Based on the responses so far, I'm assuming most people who ask for advice on here about such matter either are being oddly territorial for no gain or it's inevitably going to get nasty. I am really hoping to avoid that, but while still getting this cleared up. Maybe that's naive? 

WIAWSNB

I understand your concern. But you mustn't lose sight of the essential facts.
1) They removed your fence panels. Technically a criminal act, tho' pretty clearly carried out through ignorance.
2) They fitted their own panels, and now claim the fence as theirs. Technically trespass, tho' again likely carried out in ignorance.
3) They are being unreasonable.
And yet you are the one tying yourself in knots figuring out how to deal with this.
So, you 'cover' yourself by fitting a CCTV camera, mounted somewhere discrete around your patio, aiming down your garden for 'security', and ensuring it doesn't aim over the fence into their property = no signage required. This will give you huge reassurance, as it'll record their attitude and manners and nutty claims - and your reasonableness.
You then 'rehearse' your approach to them, so that it is kept within your control. 'Entitled' folk also tend to have an uncanny ability of being slimy and devious, often with a touch of belligerence. It can be very hard to deal with - lawdie, I know - so you do need to keep a clear head, and have thought about your approach. Their attitude can also be very useful, tho', as it'll expose their 'argument' and manner.
You, on the other hand, remain a paragon of reason. You are polite, calm, and don't talk over them. If they rant or ramble, just stand there looking at them, and wait for them to stop. Then you repeat the Q that set them off...
Follow something like the pattern I suggested - Ie, wee steps to get their 'understanding'. 
Bottom line, if it just gets you nowhere, is you explain to them what the true situation is; 

"You removed my panels from my land, and replaced them with yours. I could take action over this if I wanted to, but I'll allow you to leave them there for the time being, on the same basis as the old panels - they are effectively mine, to do with as I please. If you don't like that, you can remove them now. I'll be doing some work on my patio soon - see how my slabs go under the fence to the actual boundary line? Yes? Cool. So I'll be removing these panels to allow this work. If you feel you want privacy or security whilst I do this, you may wish to arrange for some temporary replacement on your side. Ta very muchly."

If they just won't listen, then write it down and either hand it to them, or post it through their door. 

They will, of course, go bonkers with this, claim all odds, and likely even threaten to get the police and stuff. You let them finish, and say, "I've told the facts - you do what you think you need to." 
Paraphrased.
Remember - there is nothing they can do. It is on your land. If they try - send you a solicitor's letter, for example - then you engage your Legal Protection team, who can reply with a photo showing the fence's position, and a transcript of the conversation, which your camera 'conveniently' picked up.
They are in the wrong, and will not get anywhere with this. If they call the police, the bobby will be mightily cheesed off. They won't get 'involved' in what is essentially a civil dispute, but should be savvy enough to point out the obvious boundary line, and suggest to them, "You should not have removed the old panels. If you truly believe that you have rights over this fence, then you need to sort it the correct legal way."
Which, of course, they will fail to do.