Person tripped over my outside cable cover whilst charging car...

LightFlare

Might be time to pull the plug on this thread

Baldytyke88

LightFlare said:

Might be time to pull the plug on this thread

I thought the purpose of the forum was for discussion, why stop a perfectly good one?

prowla

Baldytyke88 said:

prowla said:

As I understand it, an obstruction is something which blocks the highway (ie. so you can't get past), as opposed to something which causes an inconvenience (like a cable cover or a sleeping policeman).

(We recently had a case where an authority claimed the vehicle was causing an obstruction, but we pointed out that the video evidence showed multiple vehicles passing unhindered, so the alleged obstruction was nonexistent.)

When you can not get past, does that just apply to pedestrians or does it apply to someone in a wheelchair?

I think you will find that blind people think any car parked on the pavement is an obstruction.

There are instances every day, of cars double-parked obstructing the highway to bin wagons and fire engines.

The police would not prosecute someone for putting a high cable or a cable buried in the pavement, so if it is 99.99% safe, would that be ok?

Lots of things are illegal, but we see them on a regular basis, electric scooters for instance.

There are situations where on-kerb parking means there's not enough space for people (eg wheelchairs, puschairs) to get pass; that is an obstruction.

Similarly, your parked vehicles on the road whereby bin lorries or emergency services can't get past are an obstruction.

Neither of those are the case in the OP's case.

Your "blind people think" example relating to kerb parking may be an opinion but not necessarily be a fact; if they can pass then they are not obstructed.

Further, I didn't see the OP mention they were kerb parking (they said the cable runs the width of the pavement, which suggests not), so that's not relevant to their situation.

Section62

born_again said:

Section62 said:

WellKnownSid s

Having been involved in the drafting of some highway related legislation I know that creating a regulatory framework for on-street EV charging is going to be problematic. And given the state of local authority finances, it isn't realistic to think that the facilitation of private on-street charging is going to be cost-free to the owner.  Nor is it likely that each EV owner will be given a dedicated parking bay outside their home, so having paid for the facilitation of an EV charging cable, there will be no guarantee the owner will be able to use it.  That might make private on-street charging so unattractive that, coupled with extended vehicle range and better regulation of council/corporate charging points, few people bother with it.

Plenty of councils have on street charging & there are no issues with it.

I think it is more a case that the number of installs on-street is relatively small and this is still a new thing. So the issues haven't come to light yet.  If Mrs Smith from Acacia Avenue in Anytown trips over an on-street charger cable which has been left laying on the footway then where in the national media would you (currently) expect to be seeing it reported?  Even local media tend to report things only when they can sensationalise them a bit, or turn them into a 'campaign' as potholes seem to be at the moment.

Moreover, there is a fundamental issue in that councils outside London don't (AFAIK) have the legal power to allow or install on-street charging points (possibly why some councils are prioritising their off-street car parks).  If they don't have the legal power to install a charger on-street then they risk (a) legal challenge and (b) a slam-dunk if anyone has an 'incident' with an on-street charger and opts to seek compensation for it.  If there is no lawful authority for councils to allow or install on-street chargers then they are acting unlawfully, and that is a pretty big issue.

born_again said:

Any legislation & regulations will be government lead.

Agreed.  Some primary legislation and secondry regulations have been made, but so far (except for London) these have been peripheral issues such as the ability to make certain organisations install charging points as part of their business activity.

born_again said:

So cost to councils is minimal & should be based on costs of instals. Of which there are many charger companies who will do this for free & take a small cut out of the cost of usage.

If it were that easy....

At the moment there are different models of provision.  None have emerged as 'winners'.  All the models have issues and problems.

Nobody does anything for free, other than maybe companies with business model which means they won't be around for long.  The cost of installing an on-street charging point isn't cheap - arranging the electricity connection alone is expensive and often subject to considerable delay.  The different companies are using different equipment with proprietary technology.

Councils doing their job properly won't just be thinking about how to get on-street charging points installed, but also how they will be maintained and kept safe, and how to get rid of them when end-of-life.  Councils with good memories will know about the explosion in the numbers of non-BT call boxes which were installed following the end of BT's monopoly of the telecoms industry.  The owners of many of these new call boxes went bust - leaving them on the street gradually going derelict.  You'd think the council could just remove them, but no, that isn't how highway law works.  Not only have councils had to find the funding to remove these call boxes, they have also had to obtain the legal power to do so, and/or take on the risk of doing so unlawfully.  Those that remember this saga won't be happy allowing an explosion in the number of privately-owned on-street charging points without the legal power (and a bond to cover the cost) to enable them to be removed if the owner goes out of business.  It can be done, but it won't involve piles of free cash being generated, and is not without risk to the public purse.

Personally the model I think may work the best is for the on-street charging points to be installed and owned by the local DNO as an extension of their existing statutory powers.  They already have some of the powers and skills they need, and DNOs are going to be around long-term.  If a DNO fails, there is an automatic process for its assets to be transferred which is already in place, so the risk of orphaned and derelict charging points won't be a problem.  Conversely, giving the DNOs exclusive rights to install and maintain on-street charging points is unlikely to be a popular decision in some quarters.... including those who think there are piles of free money to be made from charge points.  The DNOs themselves will probably be unenthusiastic about taking on potential liabilities with the risk of little profit.

born_again said:

So a savvy council, will actually make money out of these...

See above.

Also, there's the small detail that highway authorities are legally restricted in what money-making activities they are allowed to do within the highway - the highway is there to allow the public to pass and repass, not to generate profit for the council.  In part this is to stop unfair competition with commercial traders.

There have been various schemes over the years - such as internet access points, advertising panels, APCs - which promised highway authorities riches in exchange for permission for these things to be placed on the highway (at the company's cost).  The reality has been once the provider has covered installation costs and tried to make some profit, what is left looks pretty meagre for the council, especially given the hoops that had to be jumped through to justify using highway space for a profit making activity. (the issues of planning consent and business rates are particularly tricky to deal with)

Bottom line:  If councils charge more for on-street charging than commercial off-street providers do then there will be less use of on-street facilities.  If councils undercut commercial off-street providers who are also forced to provide this facility then there will be justified complaints of unfair competition.  Meanwhile, both will have to face up to the fundamental issue this thread is about - that charging at home is quite likely to be much cheaper on a per kWh basis than anything a council/commercial provider can manage to offer.

Thinking the issues are simple or non-existent, and thinking there are wealth-generating opportunities here, might suggest a lack of insight into what a complex environment the highway is.

Grey_Critic

LightFlare said:

Might be time to pull the plug on this thread

I agree we seem to have drifted well away from the original query which has been answered.

You cannot legally run a cable across a piubilc highway without a permit to do so and even if granted then it would be conditional on you complying with the various regulations -

Should you do and someone incur an injury then you may be held liable and be prosecuted.

Anything else is just waffle - I do note nobody has got around to questioning where we are going to put all the waste bins that it is proposed introducing - a minimu of Five I understand

TooManyPoints

 I do note nobody has got around to questioning where we are going to put all the waste bins that it is proposed introducing - a minimu of Five I understand

They can be placed on the pavement on top of the charging lead that you have run across to charge your car. That will stop people tripping over the cable.     

eskbanker

Grey_Critic said:

I agree we seem to have drifted well away from the original query which has been answered.

[...]

Anything else is just waffle - I do note nobody has got around to questioning where we are going to put all the waste bins that it is proposed introducing - a minimu of Five I understand

Intentional irony to highlight that the thread has drifted and then to suggest discussing bins?!

Okell

Baldytyke88 said:

LightFlare said:

Might be time to pull the plug on this thread

I thought the purpose of the forum was for discussion, why stop a perfectly good one?

I think it was intended as a play on words...

Okell

TooManyPoints said:

 I do note nobody has got around to questioning where we are going to put all the waste bins that it is proposed introducing - a minimu of Five I understand

They can be placed on the pavement on top of the charging lead that you have run across to charge your car. That will stop people tripping over the cable.     

Sadly about 75% of the other residents on our road already leave both their bins out between collections.  That added to street lights going off at midnight make the pavement difficult enough to negotiate as it is.  We don't need power cables too

Mildly_Miffed

Section62 said:

born_again said:

So cost to councils is minimal & should be based on costs of instals. Of which there are many charger companies who will do this for free & take a small cut out of the cost of usage.

If it were that easy....

At the moment there are different models of provision.  None have emerged as 'winners'.  All the models have issues and problems.

Nobody does anything for free, other than maybe companies with business model which means they won't be around for long.  The cost of installing an on-street charging point isn't cheap - arranging the electricity connection alone is expensive and often subject to considerable delay.  The different companies are using different equipment with proprietary technology.

Councils doing their job properly won't just be thinking about how to get on-street charging points installed, but also how they will be maintained and kept safe, and how to get rid of them when end-of-life.

Which is precisely why councils will outsource the installation and management to third-party charge providers.

XYZVolt will get a 10yr contract for on-street and council car park charging points for Borsetshire, subject to a minimum number of installations in an agreed spread of areas, and an agreed %age availability.

Then there's off-street charging - which will be used as a subsidised draw for destinations. Supermarkets, restaurants and pubs, commercial car parks.
If somebody has their car plugged into your car park for two hours, you have their captive trade for that two hours. Equally, as a punter, you're going to the supermarket anyway...

Charge speeds will be similar for both - on-street points will be aimed at two-hour-and-move-it rather than overnight, simply because you get more vehicles charged like that.