Person tripped over my outside cable cover whilst charging car...

Section62

WellKnownSid said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

WellKnownSid said:

HillStreetBlues said:

As the OP's issue will no doubt crop up more, in the race to ban ICE vehicles, is there a plan on how all the future electric vehicles will be charged?

Doubt there is a plan but the collision with reality will sharpen minds. We manage to keep over 40 million vehicles topped up with flammable liquid on this island I’m sure we can figure out a few electric cables.

You do realise there's quite a bit of strict legislation around that...?

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/owner-petrol-station.htm

Diesel isn't particularly flammable, so the regulations are more about spillage than explosion risk.

And despite the legislation we’ve figured out a safe system of work where the general public can fill up without catching fire.  It’s all about perspective.

Because of the legislation.

The regulations restrict the general public's access to motor fuel and how that fuel is dispensed into motor vehicles.  The activity is centralised - you go to a filling station and enter an environment where what happens is tightly regulated, with a long list of what you can and can't do.  Nevertheless, some folk ignore the rules and risk an incident (e.g. using mobile phones while refuelling).

In any event the principal issues with on-street EV charging aren't equivalent to "the general public can fill up without catching fire".  If the only person who might be affected was the driver/owner of the EV then the need for regulation would be less - if you want to accidentally kill yourself with a dangerous charging system in the comfort of your own driveway then that is largely up to you, so long as you don't harm someone else.

In the public realm other people can be affected by someone's failures.  Leaving a charging cable trailing over the footway is an obvious danger - with no real equivalent in petrol/diesel fuelling.  Using a damaged cable is also obviously dangerous, but that doesn't stop people doing so.

The distributed nature of on-street charging makes it much harder to regulate.  There is no filling station attendant keeping an eye on what is happening and warning people when a dangerous situation is occurring.  Where a raft of regulations apply to filling stations, when it comes to on-street charging there is a gaping great hole in regulation, and what regulation there is doesn't really align with the nature of the activity.

Because EV use and on-street charging has been a fairly minor activity in the past there hasn't been the level of incidents and problems to prompt governments into setting up the legislative framework.  The focus so far has been encouraging EV use.  At some point the law needs to catch up.

letom

WellKnownSid said:

HillStreetBlues said:

As the OP's issue will no doubt crop up more, in the race to ban ICE vehicles, is there a plan on how all the future electric vehicles will be charged?

Doubt there is a plan but the collision with reality will sharpen minds. We manage to keep over 40 million vehicles topped up with flammable liquid on this island I’m sure we can figure out a few electric cables.

This is the problem, people say things that sound simple "a few electric cables" but don't stop and actually think about the problem or solution.

The logistics of delivery of fuel is very safe and economical. Petrol is 100x more energy dense than batteries. Big tanker with lots of energy dense fuel goes to one location, then each car comes and takes fuel for max 5 minutes and leaves with a lot of fuel/energy. It's the same concept with parcel delivery and Amazon lockers. Delivery of fuel is very efficient and is safe, only the place of delivery requires safety regulations + the cars, it's efficient for society. Electric charging flips that, it's not a great store of energy nor can this energy be passed on quickly, and you need safety regulations at each point of delivery and in the car also, compare that to ICE, overall it's very inefficient and expensive. It's partially why public charging is so expensive, it needs to be expensive to be profitable due to the inherent issues of electric charging.

To answer the original question, no, no real thought has been put in, it's more hope that it figures itself out, with people just assuming complex problems are always simple to solve...

WellKnownSid

Section62 said:

WellKnownSid said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

WellKnownSid said:

HillStreetBlues said:

As the OP's issue will no doubt crop up more, in the race to ban ICE vehicles, is there a plan on how all the future electric vehicles will be charged?

Doubt there is a plan but the collision with reality will sharpen minds. We manage to keep over 40 million vehicles topped up with flammable liquid on this island I’m sure we can figure out a few electric cables.

You do realise there's quite a bit of strict legislation around that...?

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/owner-petrol-station.htm

Diesel isn't particularly flammable, so the regulations are more about spillage than explosion risk.

And despite the legislation we’ve figured out a safe system of work where the general public can fill up without catching fire.  It’s all about perspective.

Because of the legislation.

Despite the legislation.  You missed my point - despite legislation the activity continues.  Some nay-sayers assume that, once further regulation comes into play (and there is plenty of regulation, NSRs and CoPs which apply to EV charging by the way), EV charging - especially on-street kind - will cease.  I am simply pointing out that it won't.

Section62

WellKnownSid said:

Section62 said:

WellKnownSid said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

WellKnownSid said:

HillStreetBlues said:

As the OP's issue will no doubt crop up more, in the race to ban ICE vehicles, is there a plan on how all the future electric vehicles will be charged?

Doubt there is a plan but the collision with reality will sharpen minds. We manage to keep over 40 million vehicles topped up with flammable liquid on this island I’m sure we can figure out a few electric cables.

You do realise there's quite a bit of strict legislation around that...?

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/owner-petrol-station.htm

Diesel isn't particularly flammable, so the regulations are more about spillage than explosion risk.

And despite the legislation we’ve figured out a safe system of work where the general public can fill up without catching fire.  It’s all about perspective.

Because of the legislation.

Despite the legislation.  You missed my point - despite legislation the activity continues.

Sorry, but it is you missing the point.  It is the legislation which has created a system where it is (relatively) safe for the general public to fill a vehicle with petrol/diesel.  The system isn't something which developed to get around legislation.

It continues because the legislative and regulatory framework makes it an acceptably safe activity for the public to do.

WellKnownSid said:

Some nay-sayers assume that, once further regulation comes into play (and there is plenty of regulation, NSRs and CoPs which apply to EV charging by the way), EV charging - especially on-street kind - will cease.  I am simply pointing out that it won't.

I'm not a "nay-sayer", nor am I claiming on-street EV charging will cease.  I don't think anyone contributing to this thread has claimed that.

But as a sometime highway and traffic engineer I am saying that on-street charging of EV's is problematic from a legal perspective because the existing legislation effectively makes it unlawful.  The lack of legislation which makes it lawful for a private individual to run a cable from their property to a vehicle parked on-street means people like the OP are taking a very significant risk doing what they are doing - even where they think they are taking sensible precautions like using cable covers.

Having been involved in the drafting of some highway related legislation I know that creating a regulatory framework for on-street EV charging is going to be problematic. And given the state of local authority finances, it isn't realistic to think that the facilitation of private on-street charging is going to be cost-free to the owner.  Nor is it likely that each EV owner will be given a dedicated parking bay outside their home, so having paid for the facilitation of an EV charging cable, there will be no guarantee the owner will be able to use it.  That might make private on-street charging so unattractive that, coupled with extended vehicle range and better regulation of council/corporate charging points, few people bother with it.

The scale of the task is massive.  Anyone who thinks it is just a few electric cables and easily solved hasn't even begun to grasp the issues involved.

QrizB

Section62 said:

Nevertheless, some folk ignore the rules and risk an incident (e.g. using mobile phones while refuelling).

As I understand it, that particular rule isn't about the risk of fire & explosion but is more to prevent you from being distracted around moving vehicles.
And we come full circle to the OP and "people on phones" tripping over his cable!

prowla

Section62 said:

Baldytyke88 said:

user1977 said:

Whatever the height it's still going to be unlawful without the highway authority's consent.

It is an offence to obstruct public roads, footpaths and pavements, but that doesn't stop cars from parking on it. Their defence is(outside London) that they only obstruct part of it, so the police don't enforce it.

My suggestion is not that it's entirely legal, but that it's a practical solution and better than causing a tripping hazard.

Strictly anything which doesn't have lawful authority to be on a highway (and that includes parked cars outside designated parking places) is an obstruction and the person leaving the thing there is committing an offence.

As I understand it, an obstruction is something which blocks the highway (ie. so you can't get past), as opposed to something which causes an inconvenience (like a cable cover or a sleeping policeman).

(We recently had a case where an authority claimed the vehicle was causing an obstruction, but we pointed out that the video evidence showed multiple vehicles passing unhindered, so the alleged obstruction was nonexistent.)

born_again

Section62 said:

WellKnownSid s

Having been involved in the drafting of some highway related legislation I know that creating a regulatory framework for on-street EV charging is going to be problematic. And given the state of local authority finances, it isn't realistic to think that the facilitation of private on-street charging is going to be cost-free to the owner.  Nor is it likely that each EV owner will be given a dedicated parking bay outside their home, so having paid for the facilitation of an EV charging cable, there will be no guarantee the owner will be able to use it.  That might make private on-street charging so unattractive that, coupled with extended vehicle range and better regulation of council/corporate charging points, few people bother with it.

Plenty of councils have on street charging & there are no issues with it.
Any legislation & regulations will be government lead. So cost to councils is minimal & should be based on costs of instals. Of which there are many charger companies who will do this for free & take a small cut out of the cost of usage.
So a savvy council, will actually make money out of these... 

Section62

QrizB said:

Section62 said:

Nevertheless, some folk ignore the rules and risk an incident (e.g. using mobile phones while refuelling).

As I understand it, that particular rule isn't about the risk of fire & explosion but is more to prevent you from being distracted around moving vehicles.
And we come full circle to the OP and "people on phones" tripping over his cable!

There's that, but AIUI there's also distraction from the task in hand (making sure the fuel is going in the vehicle/container with no spillage) and because phones are not intrinsically safe devices there is a (maybe theoretical?) risk of incendive sparking.

Section62

prowla said:

Section62 said:

Baldytyke88 said:

user1977 said:

Whatever the height it's still going to be unlawful without the highway authority's consent.

It is an offence to obstruct public roads, footpaths and pavements, but that doesn't stop cars from parking on it. Their defence is(outside London) that they only obstruct part of it, so the police don't enforce it.

My suggestion is not that it's entirely legal, but that it's a practical solution and better than causing a tripping hazard.

Strictly anything which doesn't have lawful authority to be on a highway (and that includes parked cars outside designated parking places) is an obstruction and the person leaving the thing there is committing an offence.

As I understand it, an obstruction is something which blocks the highway (ie. so you can't get past), as opposed to something which causes an inconvenience (like a cable cover or a sleeping policeman).

(We recently had a case where an authority claimed the vehicle was causing an obstruction, but we pointed out that the video evidence showed multiple vehicles passing unhindered, so the alleged obstruction was nonexistent.)

There are different definitions of obstruction, but in terms of highway law the basic principle is that the public have the right to pass and repass and that's it.  The highway authority has a duty to protect and assert the rights of the public (to pass and repass).  There is no absolute right to place or leave anything on the highway which interferes with the right of the public to pass and repass.

Legislation then gives lawful authority for certain things to be placed in, on, and over the highway.  For example traffic signs, grit bins, seats, drinking fountains.  Everything else, without lawful authority, is an obstruction.

Legislation also creates some specific offences - such as 'willful obstruction' and 'unnecessary obstruction'.

The problem comes with enforcement - because the law also accepts (on the de minimis principle) that some obstruction isn't significant enough to justify prosecution, although there is conflicting case law on this.  One often quoted example is Solomon v Durbridge (1956).  In that case the highway definitely wasn't 'blocked', but it was found to be 'obstructed'.

Proving an obstuction was 'unnecessary' or 'wilful' isn't straightforward, so the police and local authorities tend not to do anything about it unless the circumstances are such that prosecution is likely to be successful or otherwise advantageous.  This is probably why the "can't get by" definition has come into public use (e.g. with blocked crossovers).  But that hasn't changed the fundamentals of obstruction.

Okell

born_again said:

Section62 said:

WellKnownSid s

Having been involved in the drafting of some highway related legislation I know that creating a regulatory framework for on-street EV charging is going to be problematic. And given the state of local authority finances, it isn't realistic to think that the facilitation of private on-street charging is going to be cost-free to the owner.  Nor is it likely that each EV owner will be given a dedicated parking bay outside their home, so having paid for the facilitation of an EV charging cable, there will be no guarantee the owner will be able to use it.  That might make private on-street charging so unattractive that, coupled with extended vehicle range and better regulation of council/corporate charging points, few people bother with it.

Plenty of councils have on street charging & there are no issues with it...

But isn't the issue that they aren't on every street and aren't outside everybod's house?

None of the houses within a half mile radius of mine have drives and there are no on-street charging facilities.  You have to travel over a mile either to Waitrose or Asda to find charging facilities.

As long as it's possible for foolish people to charge at home by simply laying a trip hazard across the pavement, some people are going to do it.

As a society we seem to have thrown a lot of of effort into encouraging people to buy EVs but haven't ensured the infrastructure to support them is in place first