Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

Mildly_Miffed

Yes, the one with the big spike is electricity production.

This is actual tons of coal, with future extrapolation.

Goudy

Not wanting to imply a preference to either side of any argument, but I recently got to ask some charger related questions to an actual charger company representative.

There's a project running at work that involves for part of it, a storage and charging facility for around 60 vehicles.
I have nothing what so ever to do with this part, what I am involved in is something totally different, just on the same site, but I was privy to a meeting that included someone from this company.

Having a bit of interest we did catch up later and I asked them about EV chargers and roll outs etc.

We all generally know there are two types of chargers.
Fast chargers that are based around major routes like motorways.
These are generally high kw chargers that have a fast turn over and high cost and are generally in use a high percentage of each day. These are generally quite profitable as they are bunched up and as you can imagine they are already owned by large companies like BP, Shell etc.
And
Destination chargers, like you might have on your drive or on the street.
These tend to be lower kw, 7kw or so.
They have a low turn over but a longer connection time and are, far far cheaper per kw but they are strung out over large areas.

It turns out, there's little in it for anyone to roll out these destination chargers on actual public streets and carparks.
The economics of them aren't great.

I'm told around 6 to 7 hours a day is average per on street charger in a residential area though a bit more at around 10 hours in most carparks.

The chargeable fee is only a couple of quid an hour while it's being used and before that have paid for the electricity, the unit, it's fitting and so on, so in effect it's making pence per hour of use for whoever is running it.

Currently most are actually making a loss as they require more maintenance than they make and that maintenance cost quite high because the units are so spread out.

They "work" just, because costs of fitment have usually been shared or paid for altogether either by councils or carpark owners but they generally don't want to pay for more as most have already made their money with the parking element.
They are thought of as a sweetener to bring in custom.


As for paying your own electricity company when using any on street charger, that's a bit pie in the sky.
It's possible of course, but it's more likely that electricity companies might absorb these destination charger companies. I'm told some are sniffing at the moment.

Most are quite small/local yet so it's thought they'll be eaten by bigger and bigger fish until there's only a couple of sharks left but the biggies like BP and Shell aren't interested in them, not yet anyway.



 

born_again

Goudy said:

Not wanting to imply a preference to either side of any argument, but I recently got to ask some charger related questions to an actual charger company representative.

There's a project running at work that involves for part of it, a storage and charging facility for around 60 vehicles.
I have nothing what so ever to do with this part, what I am involved in is something totally different, just on the same site, but I was privy to a meeting that included someone from this company.

Having a bit of interest we did catch up later and I asked them about EV chargers and roll outs etc.

We all generally know there are two types of chargers.
Fast chargers that are based around major routes like motorways.
These are generally high kw chargers that have a fast turn over and high cost and are generally in use a high percentage of each day. These are generally quite profitable as they are bunched up and as you can imagine they are already owned by large companies like BP, Shell etc.
And
Destination chargers, like you might have on your drive or on the street.
These tend to be lower kw, 7kw or so.
They have a low turn over but a longer connection time and are, far far cheaper per kw but they are strung out over large areas.

It turns out, there's little in it for anyone to roll out these destination chargers on actual public streets and carparks.
The economics of them aren't great.

I'm told around 6 to 7 hours a day is average per on street charger in a residential area though a bit more at around 10 hours in most carparks.

The chargeable fee is only a couple of quid an hour while it's being used and before that have paid for the electricity, the unit, it's fitting and so on, so in effect it's making pence per hour of use for whoever is running it.

Currently most are actually making a loss as they require more maintenance than they make and that maintenance cost quite high because the units are so spread out.

They "work" just, because costs of fitment have usually been shared or paid for altogether either by councils or carpark owners but they generally don't want to pay for more as most have already made their money with the parking element.
They are thought of as a sweetener to bring in custom.


As for paying your own electricity company when using any on street charger, that's a bit pie in the sky.
It's possible of course, but it's more likely that electricity companies might absorb these destination charger companies. I'm told some are sniffing at the moment.

Most are quite small/local yet so it's thought they'll be eaten by bigger and bigger fish until there's only a couple of sharks left but the biggies like BP and Shell aren't interested in them, not yet anyway.



 

Fast chargers are A/C upto 22kW
Rapid are DC 50 to 99 kW
Ultra Rapid are DC 100kW+

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/connector-types

Rapid+ spend more time idle that actually charging cars.
Where as Fast will spend more time charging than idle.

I'm sure there is little in it for the companies on A/C destination units. But in the long term that is where highest use is going to be, or more people will start sharing their home wall boxes. Several apps already. So home users will reap the profit that these companies could. Sadly too much short term view in the marketplace from these companies.
Clearly if installing on company sites is profitable for them, then they same goes elsewhere, if they pick the right sites such as large car parks in city centres & shopping centers as well as tourist destinations.

Councils are starting to do more destination chargers, as they see a way for a quick & easy boost to their coffers.

The likes of BP & Shell are only paying lip service & their prices are just the same as their ICE prices. Far higher than anywhere else.
So no change from them in terms of ripping off customers🤣

https://www.thenec.co.uk/media/6335/guide.pdf

NEC installed 150 7kW chargers in one of their car parks. Not only do you have to pay the same daily rate to park as the other car parks. They also charge PAYG 25p connection fee & 36p kWh 
Not idea how well they are used, but there are several other sites in the area with ultra/rapid that are cheaper. But many may take the connivence route if at the NEC for the day.

 

Herzlos

henry24 said:

The electric jcb is a very small machine at 1.9 tonnes with a 5 hour working time so totally useless for any decent work 

It's the most common size of digger in the UK... And I doubt the only size that'll be available in the future. You can already buy electric micro diggers from China.

And 5 hours run time is usually fine. Remember that unlike diesel, an electric vehicle isn't consuming any power when it's not doing something. So 5 hours battery could easily be equivalent to 8 hours diesel, which is a long shift for an operator, especially with all the vibration and noise.

It can also charge in 2 hours (415V), 5 hours (230v) or 10.5 hours (110v), so on any site that has power, it can always be fully charged by the next shift.

Herzlos

It's tedious working through the same list of already solved problems every time someone mentions an EV on here. So many people really really want a problem and aren't interested in any solutions.

I mean, I totally understand the majority of you who don't have a driveway, use your car for mileages an EV can't handle yet somehow never park it anywhere that might have a charger*.

There are definitely some edge cases where EV's won't work** but I assume for pretty much everyone posting on here they'll be fine with a bit of a paradigm shift, like having to plug it in whilst doing your weekly Asda shopping.

The only actually valid problem people on here will see is accessible charging because it doesn't really exist in a reliable and consistent manner yet, especially where there are no staff to help connect/disconnect.

There's a reason that most people who have an EV already wouldn't go back to combustion, and it's not smugness or wokism.

*No public car parks, shopping centres, train stations, service stations, work car parks, etc.

**Long distance express haulage is going to be a tricky one. Organ transport, dual crew couriers, really remote heavy work, and so on.

Mildly_Miffed

Herzlos said:

**Long distance express haulage is going to be a tricky one. Organ transport, dual crew couriers, really remote heavy work, and so on.

And that's where hydrogen fuel cells will come in.

Basically, of course, a hydrogen vehicle is an EV that uses three times as much electricity, but is more quickly refillable.

It's not hard to picture hydrogen electrolysis/compression/refuelling kit at truckstops etc, and trucks/machinery having modular packs that can be relatively easily swapped between a battery pack and some kind of H2pack (fuelcell + hydrogen tank + small battery).

Of course, swappable battery packs might also be a thing. Packaging constraints are less of an issue than in cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0T5NUHyxs

born_again

Mildly_Miffed said:

Herzlos said:

**Long distance express haulage is going to be a tricky one. Organ transport, dual crew couriers, really remote heavy work, and so on.

And that's where hydrogen fuel cells will come in.

Basically, of course, a hydrogen vehicle is an EV that uses three times as much electricity, but is more quickly refillable.

It's not hard to picture hydrogen electrolysis/compression/refuelling kit at truckstops etc, and trucks/machinery having modular packs that can be relatively easily swapped between a battery pack and some kind of H2pack (fuelcell + hydrogen tank + small battery).

Of course, swappable battery packs might also be a thing. Packaging constraints are less of an issue than in cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0T5NUHyxs

The only issue is that it has been around as long as EV's & everywhere is shutting hydrogen stations. Even the like of green California is shutting them down as no one is buying the cars. 
People thing EV chargers are expensive. It is nothing compared to the cost of a hydrogen filling station. Unlike petrol, there is a delay between filling vehicles, as the pumps have to recharge.

Mildly_Miffed

born_again said:

The only issue is that it has been around as long as EV's & everywhere is shutting hydrogen stations. Even the like of green California is shutting them down as no one is buying the cars. 
People thing EV chargers are expensive. It is nothing compared to the cost of a hydrogen filling station. Unlike petrol, there is a delay between filling vehicles, as the pumps have to recharge.

I'm not talking about fuel cell cars. They're a total dead end, with "normal" BEV being far more suitable for almost every use case. Nobody was really trying very hard to sell the cars, anyway, except for the odd experiment like the Toyota Mirai.

I'm talking about double-crewed trucks, construction machinery, agricultural machinery, etc - the cases where recharge time might actually be an issue.

henry24

Herzlos said:

henry24 said:

The electric jcb is a very small machine at 1.9 tonnes with a 5 hour working time so totally useless for any decent work 

It's the most common size of digger in the UK... And I doubt the only size that'll be available in the future. You can already buy electric micro diggers from China.

And 5 hours run time is usually fine. Remember that unlike diesel, an electric vehicle isn't consuming any power when it's not doing something. So 5 hours battery could easily be equivalent to 8 hours diesel, which is a long shift for an operator, especially with all the vibration and noise.

It can also charge in 2 hours (415V), 5 hours (230v) or 10.5 hours (110v), so on any site that has power, it can always be fully charged by the next shift.

It might be the most common size digger in the UK but it's only used to replace a man with a shovel it's not a machine that is working hard all day every day this work is done with 10 ton plus machines 
When a diesel is parked what fuel is it using?
Why would 5 or 8 hours be a long shift when I've driven the big ones we worked 12 hours 6 days a week for months 

Herzlos

A diesel is using fuel any time it's running. Do you turn the engine off every time you stop to for a moment? Because an electric one is only really consuming power when something is moving.

You're obtusely trying to compare apples and oranges to try and make a point that doesn't matter here.

You're also somewhat* wrong. Volvo has a 23t electric digger the EC230 https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines/ec230-electric/#overview
As well as a whole fleet of other vehicles you seem to think can't exist in electric form. That the big manufacturers are building them and people are buying them shows that they are actually useful despite your protestations.

*The EC230 has a 5 hour battery life on it's own, so couldn't run for 12 hours. BUT Volvo also sell containerize battery packs which means you can fast charge them over a lunch break. Now I know next you'll say that you take your lunch break in the cab so need a digger to run 12 hours without stopping for even a second, because that seems to be the next step in this endless loop of EV FUD.