Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

Goudy

Although the China approach to EV uptake might be commendable in the light of a discussion like this.
The rest of China's approach to pretty much everything else is perhaps not. They wouldn't be the top of my list to use as an example for anything.
 

You currently have a choice in cars, not just with the powertrain.
2 seats, 5 seats, 7 seats, two wheel drive, four wheel drive, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and so on.
Electric is just an alternative. A choice, for the moment.

Yes, it won't do some things for some people that a ICE car would, then again a 2 seater ICE has the same problem if you want to take 3 people or a fwd car if you live up at the end of a farm track in the Pennines.

We're told it is not going to be a choice in the future.
In 10 years all new sales have EV (as things stand now).

For want of better words it may appear that this is a major event in on the horizon, so in the meantime there does appear some areas with EV ownership that need improvement. (I think even the most ardent supporter would agree that).

We have this time to improve and that's only going to come when consumers demand.
I've ran a works EV for a few months and though it's perfect for most trips, it does have some limitations for my circumstances and I know I'm not alone.
I do feel that dismissing those off hand by stating "most or majority or a percentage" won't have those issues rather a weak argument. An "I'm or we're alright jack" attitude isn't going to help improve anything.
I do feel solutions need to come to make them not just an alternative but comparable, there's only one way that will come.

As for something needing to be "better" than the last depends on many points of views.
The addition of Tetraethyllead to petrol was certainly better for petrol engines of that era. (thanks Thomas).
Using Chloroflurocardon as a refrigerant certainly stopped fridges exploding in a massive fireballs (thanks again Thomas) 
But were they actually better?

I am not happy about government incentives for quite a few things but I understand it creates a demand in an area that needs improvement. The more demand, the more things improve.

We (should) have learnt, some incentives that create demand can cause issues further down the line. Like the Co2 tax bracket driving up diesel sales and particle emissions and nitrogen oxides. 
So perhaps digging up a limited supply of elements from the ground instead of fossil fuels still might not be the improvement most of us need and some don't want.

The alternative is certainly something the majority don't want, that's pretty much a slam dunk.

So in the meantime, I think embrace the choices we have now and embrace those that seek and demand alternatives to give us a better option later, when the time comes.

I think at some point in the future there's just not going to be any options, for one reason or another and the rights and freedoms we once had will disappear. Hopefully we've done a good enough job in the meantime to carry on as a species.

Herzlos

henry24 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

henry24 said:

That Volvo digger could be a good machine and you appear to know how machines work in construction unlike a ex driver like myself so maybe you could explain how you charge machines up on sites without any power which most don't have, yes you could change power packs but your going to need a lot of power charging maybe 10 at a time.

If you'd bothered to read the linked site, you'd have seen about the 10ft container "power unit" that Volvo also supply, with 50% more battery capacity than the digger. 7t weight, so three of them can be delivered to site on a single artic.

https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/about-us/news/2023/volvo-powers-up-for-ec230-electric-and-l120h-electric-conversion/

I did read the link but I still don't understand how you are going to keep moving and charging 7 ton battery packs on sites without a electric supply 

How many sites don't actually have electricity? Those ones would have to rely on either regular battery deliveries or stick to diesel, but we're talking about a niche within a niche here. Like Australian outback haulage, logging and potentially mining/quarrying but I'd be stunned if most mines/quarries didn't have power to recharge a truck full of batteries when dealing with millions of quid of plant.

I don't think anyone is saying that there will never be cases where electric vehicles won't be viable, but they are surprisingly few and getting rarer over time. You'll always be able to find a case where it doesn't work if you try hard enough, but to do so you're deliberately overlooking all of the cases where they work fine or often better than ICE.

However, people keep cranking out these long debunked strawman arguments to try and fit the narratives that EV's are bad.

If they were so bad, why do so few EV drivers to back to ICE?

born_again

Arunmor said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

henry24 said:

Without the diesel and oil engines we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating and many other things 

A century ago: "Without horses, we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating, and many other things"

Sixty years ago: "Without coal, we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating, and many other things"

The world moves forwards.

The world hasn't moved forwards far enough, fast enough yet or cheap enough (never mind safely enough).  EVs only sell because the government are bribing businesses with subsidies.  They didn't do that with motor vehicles 120 years ago.

Wait until the 25% tariff is added to the price of that Chinese built digger.

No subsides in UK for consumers. 


On trucks. This is manufacture data, not some think tank or government. 

henry24

When diggers first go to a site they have nothing but a clean site so it's easy to put a diesel tank in, some sites never get electric and if they do it's not enough to charge machines 
You say mining and quarry would need diesel but some of the massive machines are electric but not battery they have a cable 

Arunmor

born_again said:

Arunmor said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

henry24 said:

Without the diesel and oil engines we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating and many other things 

A century ago: "Without horses, we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating, and many other things"

Sixty years ago: "Without coal, we wouldn't have homes, transport, food, heating, and many other things"

The world moves forwards.

The world hasn't moved forwards far enough, fast enough yet or cheap enough (never mind safely enough).  EVs only sell because the government are bribing businesses with subsidies.  They didn't do that with motor vehicles 120 years ago.

Wait until the 25% tariff is added to the price of that Chinese built digger.

No subsides in UK for consumers. 


On trucks. This is manufacture data, not some think tank or government. 

How can you call something that hasn't happened yet, data?  It's just the car manufacturers playing the wishful forecasting game governments is encouraging them to play.

Herzlos

henry24 said:

When diggers first go to a site they have nothing but a clean site so it's easy to put a diesel tank in, some sites never get electric and if they do it's not enough to charge machines

When you say some sites, how many is some? What kind of site?

I'm just struggling to visualize how big a problem this would hypothetically be. Initial groundworks for a new development before onsite power is available? Because whilst it's possible, rotating out battery units will be a bit of a nuisance and I'm not sure how long they'd take to recharge from diesel generators or how that'd compare in terms of efficiency.

henry24

When I used to drive diggers you could work maybe 2 years on a pipeline and apart from the site office there isn't any electricity so if you had maybe 15 machines working you can only use diesel 
If you start a new house building site you have roads to put in all the drainage and services for all the houses but there's no electricity for charging, eventually you get power but not enough to charge machines 
If you're going to use diesel generator then just use diesel in the machine 

Herzlos

That sounds pretty niche to me.

How did the office get power? Diesel generators?

henry24

Sometimes at the start it's generator but often they are in places where they can connect to the mains but a office doesn't need much power compared to charging big machines 

Petriix

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging.