Have we ever been in a worse car buying era I don't know where to turn next.

Goudy

Petriix said:

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

I think that's a fair comment.

Not wanting to start (another) argument but what about the 40% or so?
They may be the minority but it's hard to base a reasonable case for adoption with a comment like "well the rest are ok".

Yes some are against no matter what, no one will have any success changing some peoples mind, but in the shoes of say someone living in a home where home charging isn't ever going to happen, you can understand they might have a certain negative feeling about them.
Plans are afoot to make them the only option at some point, so their feelings might be valid at this point.

I am sure if there were some plans or even just some noises about evening up the difference, a lot of people would look more favourably on them.

As things stand, from a certain point of view, it may look to some like the car will be only accessible to those of a certain means.

motorguy

Goudy said:

Petriix said:

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

I think that's a fair comment.

Not wanting to start (another) argument but what about the 40% or so?
They may be the minority but it's hard to base a reasonable case for adoption with a comment like "well the rest are ok".

Yes some are against no matter what, no one will have any success changing some peoples mind, but in the shoes of say someone living in a home where home charging isn't ever going to happen, you can understand they might have a certain negative feeling about them.
Plans are afoot to make them the only option at some point, so their feelings might be valid at this point.

I am sure if there were some plans or even just some noises about evening up the difference, a lot of people would look more favourably on them.

As things stand, from a certain point of view, it may look to some like the car will be only accessible to those of a certain means.

I think at the minute the public charging point providers are suiting themselves with regards to charging costs.  I think over time we will see more competition in pricing.

We're a good 10 years away from only pure EVs being sold new, so plenty of time for that situation to change.

And even then who said EVs "had" to be cheaper to run?  They are currently with home charging but if public charging is more expensive than home charging, but more accessible than now and faster, then is it not ok if theres a similar cost to running a ICE car?  

letom

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through.

I come back to my first point, EVs are an inferior product - evidence, none of the pro EV arguments are that EVs are better, your argument is that "they're sort of the same". One can only deduce that you all do not believe that EVs are actually better than ICE cars but at best they are similar. If I were trying to sell you the new iPhone 16 vs your old iPhone 8, my argument wouldn't be "it's a reasonable choice" (your words). My argument would be the iPhone 16 is better because of XYZ, the iPhone 16 is not similar to the iPhone 8, it is just better.

I'll make the point again, if EVs were better, the government would not be taxing ICE cars significantly more to make the financial difference so wide between an EV and an ICE car.

The public is resistant to EVs, not because they are irrational, but because they are very rational. It would be very irrational to want to move to an inferior mode of transport, ironically that appears to be your argument...

Car_54

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through...

A splendid example of sadism.

WellKnownSid

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through.

I come back to my first point, EVs are an inferior product - evidence, none of the pro EV arguments are that EVs are better, your argument is that "they're sort of the same". One can only deduce that you all do not believe that EVs are actually better than ICE cars but at best they are similar. If I were trying to sell you the new iPhone 16 vs your old iPhone 8, my argument wouldn't be "it's a reasonable choice" (your words). My argument would be the iPhone 16 is better because of XYZ, the iPhone 16 is not similar to the iPhone 8, it is just better.

I'll make the point again, if EVs were better, the government would not be taxing ICE cars significantly more to make the financial difference so wide between an EV and an ICE car.

The public is resistant to EVs, not because they are irrational, but because they are very rational. It would be very irrational to want to move to an inferior mode of transport, ironically that appears to be your argument...

Which EVs have you actually driven?

Aside from being faster, smoother, quieter and less fatiguing over longer distances, I find the ability to just climb in on a morning when it’s minus 8 degrees and drive away much more 21st century.  Oh and they are cheaper - as in free car cheaper - if you can charge at home.

My wife was massively resistant to getting an EV. She knew from all the articles in the press that they can’t be driven in the rain and all EVs cost at least £60,000. Now she can’t be parted from hers 😄

Iceweasel

Car_54 said:

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through...

A splendid example of sadism.

That'll  be sad-ism surely?

letom

WellKnownSid said:

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through.

I come back to my first point, EVs are an inferior product - evidence, none of the pro EV arguments are that EVs are better, your argument is that "they're sort of the same". One can only deduce that you all do not believe that EVs are actually better than ICE cars but at best they are similar. If I were trying to sell you the new iPhone 16 vs your old iPhone 8, my argument wouldn't be "it's a reasonable choice" (your words). My argument would be the iPhone 16 is better because of XYZ, the iPhone 16 is not similar to the iPhone 8, it is just better.

I'll make the point again, if EVs were better, the government would not be taxing ICE cars significantly more to make the financial difference so wide between an EV and an ICE car.

The public is resistant to EVs, not because they are irrational, but because they are very rational. It would be very irrational to want to move to an inferior mode of transport, ironically that appears to be your argument...

Which EVs have you actually driven?

Aside from being faster, smoother, quieter and less fatiguing over longer distances, I find the ability to just climb in on a morning when it’s minus 8 degrees and drive away much more 21st century.  Oh and they are cheaper - as in free car cheaper - if you can charge at home.

My wife was massively resistant to getting an EV. She knew from all the articles in the press that they can’t be driven in the rain and all EVs cost at least £60,000. Now she can’t be parted from hers 😄

None of those things are inherent to an EV that you can't find in an ICE car, so you haven't really stated why EVs as a product category is better, which as I said isn't your argument, it is that they are more or less the same as ICE cars.

The most fundamental value proposition of any mode of transport is getting you from A to B, it's the raisin d'etre of the product. Visit any EV car home page and the selling points are range and fast charging - ie car makers need to convince you that this mode of transport gets you from A to B - could you imagine a new form of plane where the airline talked about the range of the aircraft and how it could fast charge mid way and then get you to the destination... ICE car key selling points don't say range, because ICE cars deliver on the fundamental point of a mode of transport ie you have ample range in 1 tank, and if you need more, within 5 minutes you have ample range again.

As I say, at the core it's an inferior product. As with all inferior products, EVs would sell better if they were e.g. 40-50% the price of ICE cars, theres nothing wrong with EVs, but to pretend like moving to EVs ie having to figure out whether my car can take me from A to B is some step forward in quality of life and we're all too stupid and influenced by media to see this, is disingenuous. Just own it - quality of life will go down with EVs, but that's a cost to pay for reduced emissions.

Petriix

@letom you've used a lot of words (which, to be fair, form reasonably intelligible sentences) but your argument doesn't really make sense. I don't recall anyone claiming that EVs are a better choice in all circumstances; that wouldn't be at all credible. There are, of course, pros and cons and myriad factors to consider.

There is no credible argument against rapidly transitioning away from burning fossil fuels so it's entirely reasonable for the government to tip the balance towards EVs where people (and 'the market') might otherwise be reluctant to change. While EVs are definitely not a panacea, they are objectively far less damaging than their fossil fuel equivalents.

While there are some factors which make EVs a worse choice for some, many of the arguments against them rely on overstating the perceived negatives. Examples include:

Expensive battery replacement (except almost no one ever actually has to replace an EV battery) 

Insufficient range (except most people don't actually drive beyond the range of a typical EV) 

Slow charging (except most people would be able charge while the car is parked for a prolonged period anyway so won't actually be waiting) 

Expensive and unreliable public charging (except most people will only occasionally require public charging) 

Fear of EV fires (except vehicles with combustion engines are between 30 and 60 times more likely to catch fire than pure EVs). 

The pros of EVs are well documented but, if you need a reminder, they are:

Vastly more efficient, faster, smoother and easier to drive, cleaner, greener, more reliable, cheaper to run and maintain, and (for many) more convenient to refuel. 

I have read the thread. I mostly don't bother entering into debates where the discussion has veered towards the irrational. However, my aim is not to change the minds of those who cling to their misguided beliefs, but to present some balance for those who aren't aware of the incredible amount of misinformation being shared. 

motorguy

letom said:

WellKnownSid said:

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through.

I come back to my first point, EVs are an inferior product - evidence, none of the pro EV arguments are that EVs are better, your argument is that "they're sort of the same". One can only deduce that you all do not believe that EVs are actually better than ICE cars but at best they are similar. If I were trying to sell you the new iPhone 16 vs your old iPhone 8, my argument wouldn't be "it's a reasonable choice" (your words). My argument would be the iPhone 16 is better because of XYZ, the iPhone 16 is not similar to the iPhone 8, it is just better.

I'll make the point again, if EVs were better, the government would not be taxing ICE cars significantly more to make the financial difference so wide between an EV and an ICE car.

The public is resistant to EVs, not because they are irrational, but because they are very rational. It would be very irrational to want to move to an inferior mode of transport, ironically that appears to be your argument...

Which EVs have you actually driven?

Aside from being faster, smoother, quieter and less fatiguing over longer distances, I find the ability to just climb in on a morning when it’s minus 8 degrees and drive away much more 21st century.  Oh and they are cheaper - as in free car cheaper - if you can charge at home.

My wife was massively resistant to getting an EV. She knew from all the articles in the press that they can’t be driven in the rain and all EVs cost at least £60,000. Now she can’t be parted from hers 😄

None of those things are inherent to an EV that you can't find in an ICE car, so you haven't really stated why EVs as a product category is better, which as I said isn't your argument, it is that they are more or less the same as ICE cars.

The most fundamental value proposition of any mode of transport is getting you from A to B, it's the raisin d'etre of the product. Visit any EV car home page and the selling points are range and fast charging - ie car makers need to convince you that this mode of transport gets you from A to B - could you imagine a new form of plane where the airline talked about the range of the aircraft and how it could fast charge mid way and then get you to the destination... ICE car key selling points don't say range, because ICE cars deliver on the fundamental point of a mode of transport ie you have ample range in 1 tank, and if you need more, within 5 minutes you have ample range again.

As I say, at the core it's an inferior product. As with all inferior products, EVs would sell better if they were e.g. 40-50% the price of ICE cars, theres nothing wrong with EVs, but to pretend like moving to EVs ie having to figure out whether my car can take me from A to B is some step forward in quality of life and we're all too stupid and influenced by media to see this, is disingenuous. Just own it - quality of life will go down with EVs, but that's a cost to pay for reduced emissions.

Why does an EV have to be "better"?

A car fundamentally is a means of getting from A to B.  The average car journey length is 8 miles.  The average miles per year in a car is something like 5,000 to 8,000 miles.  Any EV will easily do that.  Many will do much much more.

EVs arent about being "better" than ICE.  They're about offering a replacement to burning the earths resources and pumping out the cancerous residuals of that practically in our faces in our towns and cities.  

People need to get their heads around not "needing" a range of 500+ miles but realising their day to day journies only amount to a matter of miles.  Its about thinking differently. 

EV advertising reemphasises the range and ease of charging as thats the two main concerns of potential buyers.

If someone has an EV with a range of 300 miles, they're only looking at charging it maybe once a fortnight.  For many, thats simply plugging it in overnight at their home or at their place of work.  There is no hardship in actually doing that.  Come out the following morning / leave work and the cars fully charged again.

To say quality of life will go down with owning an EV is frankly farcical.

Car_54

letom said:

WellKnownSid said:

letom said:

Petriix said:

There does seem to be a correlation between those with an irrational fear of EVs and those unable to construct grammatically correct sentences. While there are some genuine circumstances where EVs would be challenging at this point, most of the arguments amount to a kind of straw-clutching whataboutery rather than genuine concern around a real-world scenario. 

For most people (as in a little more than half of UK drivers) with access to cheap charging, an EV is a reasonable option and the current market is pretty favorable. For the other 40% or so, I wouldn't advise switching if you're going to be relying on expensive public charging. 

You must have come late to the thread, as quite a lot of arguments have been quite rational. Suggest you start at page 1 and work your way through.

I come back to my first point, EVs are an inferior product - evidence, none of the pro EV arguments are that EVs are better, your argument is that "they're sort of the same". One can only deduce that you all do not believe that EVs are actually better than ICE cars but at best they are similar. If I were trying to sell you the new iPhone 16 vs your old iPhone 8, my argument wouldn't be "it's a reasonable choice" (your words). My argument would be the iPhone 16 is better because of XYZ, the iPhone 16 is not similar to the iPhone 8, it is just better.

I'll make the point again, if EVs were better, the government would not be taxing ICE cars significantly more to make the financial difference so wide between an EV and an ICE car.

The public is resistant to EVs, not because they are irrational, but because they are very rational. It would be very irrational to want to move to an inferior mode of transport, ironically that appears to be your argument...

Which EVs have you actually driven?

Aside from being faster, smoother, quieter and less fatiguing over longer distances, I find the ability to just climb in on a morning when it’s minus 8 degrees and drive away much more 21st century.  Oh and they are cheaper - as in free car cheaper - if you can charge at home.

My wife was massively resistant to getting an EV. She knew from all the articles in the press that they can’t be driven in the rain and all EVs cost at least £60,000. Now she can’t be parted from hers 😄

The most fundamental value proposition of any mode of transport is getting you from A to B, it's the raisin d'etre of the product. 

I know this thread has occasionally veered off-topic, but what has dried fruit got to do with it?