PHEV or Hybrid to buy?

RogerPensionGuy

ThorOdinson said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Niv said:

After reading this thread, it just makes me want to keep my diesel for as long as practicable. 

Yes indeed. 

Petrol or Diesel, if it's not a monster and kept in good condition and driven appropriately, keeping good servicable cars like this win on many fronts and probably by far the best real environment way to behave. 

But we like shinny new cars, mobile phones and the like, plus the finiance industry has made it look easy to achieve shinny items to make us feel better that the Jones next door. 

PCP is a great example for the above. 

Maybe I'll put a private plate on my car, swap wheels with a mate and change its colour by wrapping it and most neighbours will think its a new car. 

What fun! 

Possibly okay for the environment, but not other people's lungs.

If I drive a sensible ICE car for say 3K miles a year and people around me do the same, maybe it reduces local air quality where these cars are used and indeed the air I breath. 

However if people around me and myself buy very heavy EV cars and scrap our ICE cars and drive just 3K miles per year, the overall impact is far far worse and indeed air quality and environmental effects will be worldwide. 

WellKnownSid

RogerPensionGuy said:

ThorOdinson said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Niv said:

After reading this thread, it just makes me want to keep my diesel for as long as practicable. 

Yes indeed. 

Petrol or Diesel, if it's not a monster and kept in good condition and driven appropriately, keeping good servicable cars like this win on many fronts and probably by far the best real environment way to behave. 

But we like shinny new cars, mobile phones and the like, plus the finiance industry has made it look easy to achieve shinny items to make us feel better that the Jones next door. 

PCP is a great example for the above. 

Maybe I'll put a private plate on my car, swap wheels with a mate and change its colour by wrapping it and most neighbours will think its a new car. 

What fun! 

Possibly okay for the environment, but not other people's lungs.

If I drive a sensible ICE car for say 3K miles a year and people around me do the same, maybe it reduces local air quality where these cars are used and indeed the air I breath. 

However if people around me and myself buy very heavy EV cars and scrap our ICE cars and drive just 3K miles per year, the overall impact is far far worse and indeed air quality and environmental effects will be worldwide. 

Have you thought about not having a car?  3,000 miles a year feels like car club / public transport / taxi territory.

As a family our four main cars covered over 50,000 miles last year (100% diesel) - but we'll be down to about 42k this year through using public transport more, with diesel use down to around 11k miles (0 from next year).

Herzlos

RogerPensionGuy said:

If I drive a sensible ICE car for say 3K miles a year and people around me do the same, maybe it reduces local air quality where these cars are used and indeed the air I breath. 

However if people around me and myself buy very heavy EV cars and scrap our ICE cars and drive just 3K miles per year, the overall impact is far far worse and indeed air quality and environmental effects will be worldwide. 

Don't cars put out a lot more emissions when cold and on short journeys? At that mileage you're at about 10 miles a day, so possibly outside of taxi budget but even if that's 2x 5 mile journeys (more likely 4x2.5 miles) 5 times a week you're barely getting the car warmed up. Did you say it was diesel too? Your fuel economy must be pretty dreadful even if driving sensibly.

I bet the cars stopped somewhere with a charger long enough that you could charge it almost passively too, but at that mileage you're probably not going to the petrol station very often anyway.

The big difficultly would be the car, we're talking about a 5008 here which is a pretty big people carrier? There aren't many electric equivalents to that yet (I'd be tempted by one) and certainly none of them are cheap yet. You can probably land a Vauxhall Combo 7 seater for £20k now but you'd never do enough miles to justify the change.

RogerPensionGuy

Reference last two posters. 

We got 2 cars and maybe 5K miles total per year, so yes probably cheaper using taxis and/or a car club from a cost point of view.

But we like the flexabilites of having cars and just suck up the expense.

Our environment impact it pretty small as little fuel used, both cars get about 47 MPG on average.

I like driving EVs because there are quite and getting a hi spec one is obviously costing lots of cash. 

Two big dislikes in my head, that 2K luxury tax and paying about double on public electricity than petrol or diesel, due mileage these two items are pretty insignificant in the overall process of selling a very hi spec fully serviceable car that does 50+ MPG for say 16K and adding say 20 or 30K buying a 36/46Kish EV.

I'm still in the zone that if I see a super cheap EV pre-reg or new that I may buy one, ideally before April luxury tax, but I don't mind paying that luxury tax if I'm able to buy a very hi spec EV at say 50 to 60% if some rather silly(PCP/BIK) RRP figures they make up.

If them Taycans were a lot smaller I would easily buy one.

I read again yesterday EV sales are currently 17% and far away from that 22% so indeed makers can sell off stock piles of EVs and trade the credits, this process will indeed all EVs to be sold at nice prices, but will affect makers holding high prices in the future, thankfully the fleets, taxis, ubers and other sections of UK society are already fully a wash with new EVs, so thankfully the makers are allowing private buyers to buy new EVs way below the silly RRP figures.

I'll keep waiting for them 40/50% off RRP and hopefully they will be in nice colours I like. 

Herzlos

I

RogerPensionGuy said:
Our environment impact it pretty small as little fuel used, both cars get about 47 MPG on average.

...

paying about double on public electricity than petrol or diesel

I'm slightly confused by these 2 points. 47mpg is pretty decent, but I find whilst I can top that on a long careful run in my 1.5 diesel, I'm seeing about 30mpg around town or short journeys. Maybe you're doing longer runs than I am, or driving a lot more carefully, but I've been unable to get more than 40mpg even driving like a nun around town.

On the electricity price - any time I've run the numbers I've found that the most expensive EV charging is almost the same as diesel, assuming 45mpg because the conversion to litres is easier. What electric charging are you using as a reference?

RogerPensionGuy

Herzlos said:

I

RogerPensionGuy said:
Our environment impact it pretty small as little fuel used, both cars get about 47 MPG on average.

...

paying about double on public electricity than petrol or diesel

I'm slightly confused by these 2 points. 47mpg is pretty decent, but I find whilst I can top that on a long careful run in my 1.5 diesel, I'm seeing about 30mpg around town or short journeys. Maybe you're doing longer runs than I am, or driving a lot more carefully, but I've been unable to get more than 40mpg even driving like a nun around town.

On the electricity price - any time I've run the numbers I've found that the most expensive EV charging is almost the same as diesel, assuming 45mpg because the conversion to litres is easier. What electric charging are you using as a reference?

We are both very gentle drivers, tyre and brakes last much more than others we know mile 4 mile, essentially no traffic jam driving, stop start engines help, motorway, dual carriageway driving happy to sit at the speed limits and read the road staying away from vehicles braking accelerating as a pass time, tyres inflated and tracking kept well.

Reference MPG or EV range, real world range data now supplied is apparently very hard for Joe Public to achieve, I read some drivers only achieve 65/75% of makers figures.

Reference EV public Charging costs, when salesperson offers me say £900 of charging and check my postcode even they agree apples 4 apples I may as well drive a 4 litre SUV ref my personal fuel costs, then inconvenience and hassle on top.

Local places to me are about 70 to 80 pence per KWh if I want easy chargers that work well and no waiting around, yes I could get cheaper if I took more effort, think I can pay 85 pence also. 

I generally though a ballpark figure to make public charging and ICE similar same is 40/45 pence per KWh. 

With my ICE car I can just top up fuel when ever convenient, if I get an EV, I will keep it in between 60 and 95% charged to avoid hassle. 

So yes, I'm probably the last person who should buy an EV, but I might if price and spec is super good. 

***

https://www.thetimes.com/money-mentor/income-budgeting/family-finance/is-it-cheaper-to-run-electric-car-uk#:~:text=Although list prices for electric,are produced in smaller numbers.

***


https://www.carwow.co.uk/guides/choosing/disadvantages-of-electric-cars?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_account=6984742135&utm_campaign=16694567694&utm_group=137824991751&utm_keyword=&device=m&campaignid=16694567694&adgroupid=137824991751&gad_source=1

***

https://altoo.io/can-electric-cars-be-harmful-to-our-health/

WellKnownSid

RogerPensionGuy said:

Herzlos said:

I

RogerPensionGuy said:
Our environment impact it pretty small as little fuel used, both cars get about 47 MPG on average.

...

paying about double on public electricity than petrol or diesel

I'm slightly confused by these 2 points. 47mpg is pretty decent, but I find whilst I can top that on a long careful run in my 1.5 diesel, I'm seeing about 30mpg around town or short journeys. Maybe you're doing longer runs than I am, or driving a lot more carefully, but I've been unable to get more than 40mpg even driving like a nun around town.

On the electricity price - any time I've run the numbers I've found that the most expensive EV charging is almost the same as diesel, assuming 45mpg because the conversion to litres is easier. What electric charging are you using as a reference?

I generally though a ballpark figure to make public charging and ICE similar same is 40/45 pence per KWh. 

Public AC charging is generally around 40p or less.  22kW AC chargers available at many supermarkets / shopping centres could give you 200 miles in the time it takes to have a good meal.  Not all cars support 22kW but it is a game-changer.  A Model 3 only supports 11kW so our little Zoe is twice as fast as a Tesla

Two big dislikes in my head, that 2K luxury tax and paying about double on public electricity 

Then shake the PCLS tree and buy your luxury EV before next April... 3k miles / 4m/kWh = 750kWh x .79 = £49 a month in electric...

Herzlos

Yeah I guess that'd be right. assuming 85/kwh and 3m/kwh which is on the low end for an ev, and a 45mpg diesel @ £1.48/l (todays average UK price). So you're essentially equating motorway electricity on an inefficient car with normal diesel in an efficient car to give you the most anti-EV figure.

28p/mile in the EV vs 15p/mile. About double.

But if the EV did 4m/kwh which is reasonable if you're driving carefully it becomes 21p/mile. Or 3kw/h at 40p/kwh it becomes 14p/mile and cheaper than diesel. It'll take a bit longer to charge but it's more likely to be available wherever the car is parked anyway.

That's not even getting into stuff like congestion/emission charging, servicing, tyres and brakes etc.

Though I will say that if you can't charge at home (for under 20p/kwh) or somewhere you visit regularly it'll be a lot more convenient to stick to petrol. Given how little mileage you actually do I'd definitely be prioritizing convenience over fuel economy.

born_again

RogerPensionGuy said:

Reference EV public Charging costs, when salesperson offers me say £900 of charging and check my postcode even they agree apples 4 apples I may as well drive a 4 litre SUV ref my personal fuel costs, then inconvenience and hassle on top.

Local places to me are about 70 to 80 pence per KWh if I want easy chargers that work well and no waiting around, yes I could get cheaper if I took more effort, think I can pay 85 pence also. 

Afraid to disagree on this.
But all cases are different & as before EV do not suit all. But if charging at supermarket, unless sainsburys with multi charges, waiting is odds on.

It's all about making the numbers work & it looks like they do not for you 👍

Did 800 miles on holiday in EV. Same as last year in a Hybrid

Hybrid 50mpg. Cost £101.39
EV Ave 4mile/kWh Cost £ 107.98 Should have been £94.11, as stopped for coffee on way home, did not really need to charge (dearest one as well 85p kWh), but did. Would have had enough to get home without.

So in reality I would call that even over a few £

Edited for error on figures. 

WellKnownSid

born_again said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Reference EV public Charging costs, when salesperson offers me say £900 of charging and check my postcode even they agree apples 4 apples I may as well drive a 4 litre SUV ref my personal fuel costs, then inconvenience and hassle on top.

Local places to me are about 70 to 80 pence per KWh if I want easy chargers that work well and no waiting around, yes I could get cheaper if I took more effort, think I can pay 85 pence also. 

Did 800 miles on holiday in EV. Same as last year in a Hybrid

Hybrid 50mpg. Cost £101.39
EV Ave 4kWh/mile Cost £ 107.98

Think you mean m/kWh 😄

Our London trip - 692 miles - cost £26.40 in Tesla DC charging, £25.19 in AC charging and £3.60 back at home. £55.19 total.

You need to download the Tesla app!