PHEV or Hybrid to buy?

Herzlos

Unless you're doing higher mileage or trying to take advantage of BIK, then I'd probably just stick with a petrol car over a hybrid. There will be less to go wrong and less weight.

If you do want a hybrid and are never going to plug it in, then go for a "mild" or "self charging" hybrid. These ones have smaller batteries and will use braking to charge up to give you a small amount of electric power. I'm not sure you'd be able to regenerate enough charge on it's own to fully charge a PHEV so that extra battery capacity is wasted.

Nasqueron

RogerPensionGuy said:

Bigwheels1111 said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

All posts above noted and thanks. 

I like the idea of an EV, but like,, is it 65% of the UK population don't have simple or cheap charging possibilities.

Nissan E Power cars drive great, but I just don't want one of these current models. 

Looks like I'll just pick car I want, if the PHEV model isn't too much more than the Hybrid, then I'll buy the PHEV I think. 

If I get a PHEV I will take the leads out of the car, I cannot understand why PHEVs or EVs carry leads due weigh, range or space etc, surely governments should just ensure all chargers have suitable leads. 

A slight favour for PHEVs is VED and pay per mile and parking charges where lower C02 emissions get cheaper parking, however maybe heavier cars will get charged more to park. 

Maybe EV offers will get even better the next few months as manufacturers try to avoid the ICE fines(22.5%~77.5%) and offer better deals to sell or register EVs and I'll just put up with expensive charging costs and hassles charging it. 

Not 100% sure on this but, make sure the PHEV reverts back to a hybrid once the battery depletes.
Other wise your dragging a dead body round in the boot all day. Not all do this.
My neighbours got a Mercedes PHEV for tax reasons from work.
Never changed it, what a joke.

 

Talking about the environment, having very very heavy 400 or 500 mile range EVs is also a negative, maybe the world should copy the quick battery change centres they have in China, think they have 6,000 centres and growing allowing sensible size batteries to be used in cars. 

Question - why do you think the heavy EV is bad for the environment given you emphasised the weight? The heaviest Tesla Plaid model is lighter than a full spec BMW X5 without the pollution of the ICE, there are lots of heavy ICE and several light EVs that are perfect for the average driver going to work, shops and gym

RogerPensionGuy

Nasqueron said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Bigwheels1111 said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

All posts above noted and thanks. 

I like the idea of an EV, but like,, is it 65% of the UK population don't have simple or cheap charging possibilities.

Nissan E Power cars drive great, but I just don't want one of these current models. 

Looks like I'll just pick car I want, if the PHEV model isn't too much more than the Hybrid, then I'll buy the PHEV I think. 

If I get a PHEV I will take the leads out of the car, I cannot understand why PHEVs or EVs carry leads due weigh, range or space etc, surely governments should just ensure all chargers have suitable leads. 

A slight favour for PHEVs is VED and pay per mile and parking charges where lower C02 emissions get cheaper parking, however maybe heavier cars will get charged more to park. 

Maybe EV offers will get even better the next few months as manufacturers try to avoid the ICE fines(22.5%~77.5%) and offer better deals to sell or register EVs and I'll just put up with expensive charging costs and hassles charging it. 

Not 100% sure on this but, make sure the PHEV reverts back to a hybrid once the battery depletes.
Other wise your dragging a dead body round in the boot all day. Not all do this.
My neighbours got a Mercedes PHEV for tax reasons from work.
Never changed it, what a joke.

 

Talking about the environment, having very very heavy 400 or 500 mile range EVs is also a negative, maybe the world should copy the quick battery change centres they have in China, think they have 6,000 centres and growing allowing sensible size batteries to be used in cars. 

Question - why do you think the heavy EV is bad for the environment given you emphasised the weight? The heaviest Tesla Plaid model is lighter than a full spec BMW X5 without the pollution of the ICE, there are lots of heavy ICE and several light EVs that are perfect for the average driver going to work, shops and gym

From my reading, EVs are typically heavier than ICE cars. 

If I buy an EV, it will probably have a big old battery due range anxiously and not home charging. 

So my EV would have a big environmental impact getting made, EV makers have been well critised for waste and environmental impact at bulld.

Looking at same car with long range batteries or a sensible ICE model, the EV is heavier generally.

With an ICE I would top up fuel tank to say 40% full every week or ten days, with the EV I'm lugging a full weight battery all the time. 

EV battery is typically only guaranteed to 70% capacity at 8 years, so an old EV that had 200 real mile range(maker quoted say 240) will be say 140 miles range at 8 years plus. If makers were more confident of long term capacity, they would increase the 8 years and the 70% capacity.

The ideal car for me is probably a sensible petrol, mild or full hybrid petrol.

The EV or PHEV just aren't right, but just now some new EVs are having massive RRP reductions and the specs on these cars are very nice, also plenty one or two year old EVs with less than 2K miles, some just 50 miles as they must of been holding stock to try avoid discounting prices.

So I'll keep looking, if I can pick up a super cheap new EV, pre~ref or the less than 3K miles, then I'll accept all the downsides for me. 

Also the cheap China EVs being offloaded in the UK is really really helping UK EV prices go down. 

I took a look at a new Tesla today on the Internet, just 30K, unfortunately it was Tesla USA so it was dollars and left hand drive, I then selected UK and it climbed up to 40K UK pounds, funny that! 

WellKnownSid

Weight has only a small impact on fuel economy.  It takes no more effort to push a two tonne car along a flat, level surface than a one tonne car - and with an EV you recycle some of the extra work done to accelerate the heavier car up to speed.  The biggest impact on efficiency and hence range is down to drag, and the general public love buying these SUV shaped cars which offer brick-like efficiency.  I don't disagree that the larger batteries are probably extremely wasteful in those circumstances - one Ford Explorer has almost the equivalent battery capacity of three Dacia Spring EVs.

The 70% capacity thing has been heavily debunked with plenty of 2015 cars still on 90+% state of health.  There are, as always, exceptions but those chemistries and construction methods e.g. passive cooling are no longer used.

RogerPensionGuy

Cars have been getting heavier and heavier lately, bigger and bigger also. 

Heavy cars use more energy than lighter ones, cause lots more tyre rubber pollution and stuff. A few interesting links below. 
***

https://www.carwow.co.uk/editorial/going-electric/ev-tips-and-advice/are-electric-cars-heavier-than-petrol-and-diesel-cars#gref
***

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13155147/ev-pollution-worse-exhaust-emissions-study.html
***

https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/the-inconvenient-truth-about-evs?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwufq2BhAmEiwAnZqw8hL3Tj0y28VCHu_qiq4vy2iJBZziNkWJkYA7r6_7QPYL-o0ojIfJhhoCbKYQAvD_BwE

Nasqueron

RogerPensionGuy said:

Nasqueron said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Bigwheels1111 said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

All posts above noted and thanks. 

I like the idea of an EV, but like,, is it 65% of the UK population don't have simple or cheap charging possibilities.

Nissan E Power cars drive great, but I just don't want one of these current models. 

Looks like I'll just pick car I want, if the PHEV model isn't too much more than the Hybrid, then I'll buy the PHEV I think. 

If I get a PHEV I will take the leads out of the car, I cannot understand why PHEVs or EVs carry leads due weigh, range or space etc, surely governments should just ensure all chargers have suitable leads. 

A slight favour for PHEVs is VED and pay per mile and parking charges where lower C02 emissions get cheaper parking, however maybe heavier cars will get charged more to park. 

Maybe EV offers will get even better the next few months as manufacturers try to avoid the ICE fines(22.5%~77.5%) and offer better deals to sell or register EVs and I'll just put up with expensive charging costs and hassles charging it. 

Not 100% sure on this but, make sure the PHEV reverts back to a hybrid once the battery depletes.
Other wise your dragging a dead body round in the boot all day. Not all do this.
My neighbours got a Mercedes PHEV for tax reasons from work.
Never changed it, what a joke.

 

Talking about the environment, having very very heavy 400 or 500 mile range EVs is also a negative, maybe the world should copy the quick battery change centres they have in China, think they have 6,000 centres and growing allowing sensible size batteries to be used in cars. 

Question - why do you think the heavy EV is bad for the environment given you emphasised the weight? The heaviest Tesla Plaid model is lighter than a full spec BMW X5 without the pollution of the ICE, there are lots of heavy ICE and several light EVs that are perfect for the average driver going to work, shops and gym

From my reading, EVs are typically heavier than ICE cars. 

If I buy an EV, it will probably have a big old battery due range anxiously and not home charging. 

So my EV would have a big environmental impact getting made, EV makers have been well critised for waste and environmental impact at bulld.

Looking at same car with long range batteries or a sensible ICE model, the EV is heavier generally.

With an ICE I would top up fuel tank to say 40% full every week or ten days, with the EV I'm lugging a full weight battery all the time. 

EV battery is typically only guaranteed to 70% capacity at 8 years, so an old EV that had 200 real mile range(maker quoted say 240) will be say 140 miles range at 8 years plus. If makers were more confident of long term capacity, they would increase the 8 years and the 70% capacity.

The ideal car for me is probably a sensible petrol, mild or full hybrid petrol.

The EV or PHEV just aren't right, but just now some new EVs are having massive RRP reductions and the specs on these cars are very nice, also plenty one or two year old EVs with less than 2K miles, some just 50 miles as they must of been holding stock to try avoid discounting prices.

So I'll keep looking, if I can pick up a super cheap new EV, pre~ref or the less than 3K miles, then I'll accept all the downsides for me. 

Also the cheap China EVs being offloaded in the UK is really really helping UK EV prices go down. 

I took a look at a new Tesla today on the Internet, just 30K, unfortunately it was Tesla USA so it was dollars and left hand drive, I then selected UK and it climbed up to 40K UK pounds, funny that! 

OK I get you, it's the old myth about heavy EV being terrible and ICE not. 

I guessed it might be hence I cited the example of the X5 ICE vs the Tesla EV with the ICE being heavier. 

Rest of it just unfortunately reads like a Daily Mail article of all the old myths like battery life (there is data on Tesla cars with 10+ year batteries and others over 300k+ miles still with 90% or more capacity)

RogerPensionGuy

Nasqueron said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Nasqueron said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

Bigwheels1111 said:

RogerPensionGuy said:

All posts above noted and thanks. 

I like the idea of an EV, but like,, is it 65% of the UK population don't have simple or cheap charging possibilities.

Nissan E Power cars drive great, but I just don't want one of these current models. 

Looks like I'll just pick car I want, if the PHEV model isn't too much more than the Hybrid, then I'll buy the PHEV I think. 

If I get a PHEV I will take the leads out of the car, I cannot understand why PHEVs or EVs carry leads due weigh, range or space etc, surely governments should just ensure all chargers have suitable leads. 

A slight favour for PHEVs is VED and pay per mile and parking charges where lower C02 emissions get cheaper parking, however maybe heavier cars will get charged more to park. 

Maybe EV offers will get even better the next few months as manufacturers try to avoid the ICE fines(22.5%~77.5%) and offer better deals to sell or register EVs and I'll just put up with expensive charging costs and hassles charging it. 

Not 100% sure on this but, make sure the PHEV reverts back to a hybrid once the battery depletes.
Other wise your dragging a dead body round in the boot all day. Not all do this.
My neighbours got a Mercedes PHEV for tax reasons from work.
Never changed it, what a joke.

 

Talking about the environment, having very very heavy 400 or 500 mile range EVs is also a negative, maybe the world should copy the quick battery change centres they have in China, think they have 6,000 centres and growing allowing sensible size batteries to be used in cars. 

Question - why do you think the heavy EV is bad for the environment given you emphasised the weight? The heaviest Tesla Plaid model is lighter than a full spec BMW X5 without the pollution of the ICE, there are lots of heavy ICE and several light EVs that are perfect for the average driver going to work, shops and gym

From my reading, EVs are typically heavier than ICE cars. 

If I buy an EV, it will probably have a big old battery due range anxiously and not home charging. 

So my EV would have a big environmental impact getting made, EV makers have been well critised for waste and environmental impact at bulld.

Looking at same car with long range batteries or a sensible ICE model, the EV is heavier generally.

With an ICE I would top up fuel tank to say 40% full every week or ten days, with the EV I'm lugging a full weight battery all the time. 

EV battery is typically only guaranteed to 70% capacity at 8 years, so an old EV that had 200 real mile range(maker quoted say 240) will be say 140 miles range at 8 years plus. If makers were more confident of long term capacity, they would increase the 8 years and the 70% capacity.

The ideal car for me is probably a sensible petrol, mild or full hybrid petrol.

The EV or PHEV just aren't right, but just now some new EVs are having massive RRP reductions and the specs on these cars are very nice, also plenty one or two year old EVs with less than 2K miles, some just 50 miles as they must of been holding stock to try avoid discounting prices.

So I'll keep looking, if I can pick up a super cheap new EV, pre~ref or the less than 3K miles, then I'll accept all the downsides for me. 

Also the cheap China EVs being offloaded in the UK is really really helping UK EV prices go down. 

I took a look at a new Tesla today on the Internet, just 30K, unfortunately it was Tesla USA so it was dollars and left hand drive, I then selected UK and it climbed up to 40K UK pounds, funny that! 

OK I get you, it's the old myth about heavy EV being terrible and ICE not. 

I guessed it might be hence I cited the example of the X5 ICE vs the Tesla EV with the ICE being heavier. 

Rest of it just unfortunately reads like a Daily Mail article of all the old myths like battery life (there is data on Tesla cars with 10+ year batteries and others over 300k+ miles still with 90% or more capacity)

Generally heavier cars use more energy and are more environmentally unfriendly, car weights have been growing a lot the last few decades, I think France are starting to make heavier cars less welcome.

The links I provided in a previous post do show pretty normal cars, a Peugeot and a BMW are way way heavier in EV form. 

Reference 70% capacity at eight years guaranteed, all the manufacturers do is normally replace individual cells to achieve 70% at eight years old, after that, it up to the owner I guess, replacing more cells or live with capacity losses.

We will see more and more safety(fire) restrictions being applied on batteries as time rolls on, these big old EV battery cars need a bit more distance between them to reduce or avoid fire spread, when they go wrong, they can be nasty.
***

https://etsc.eu/heavier-cars-will-pay-more-to-park-in-paris-from-september/

***

https://www.dw.com/en/south-koreans-hit-the-brakes-on-evs-after-battery-fires/a-69978616

***

Petriix

While it's undoubtedly true that a) heavier vehicles waste more energy (and have marginally higher tyre wear) and b) EVs are typically heavier than their closest fossil equivalents, it's a non sequitur argument to suggest that EVs are somehow worse because of this.

When you account for the generation, delivery, charging and discharging of the electricity to power an EV in the UK, typical emissions average at between 25g and 50g of CO2 per mile. For fossil cars (ignoring everything that happens before the fuel reaches the forecourt) the real world emissions are typically between 5 and 10 times the amount.

Then there's the particulate emissions and other noxious gases that come from the engine and the brake dust (which EVs hardly cause due to regenerative braking). 5% more tyre wear pales into insignificance.

Having said all that, however, it would be incredibly wasteful to buy a heavy PHEV but never actually charge it. When (mis)used in that way, PHEVs are less efficient than their lighter and less complicated fossil equivalents. It's basically the same as getting a puppy but never taking it for a walk. 

Ganga

TadleyBaggie said:

Very happy with my e-Power Qashqai. Drive to the wheels is 100% electric, the petrol motor comes on and off to keep the battery charged. So you get electric performance and petrol range.

I ( maybe wrongly ) thought that converting petrol engine power too electric then too traction power would be a waste of energy as opposed to pure petrol/diesel drive or pure battery drive. 

Herzlos

Petriix said:

While it's undoubtedly true that a) heavier vehicles waste more energy (and have marginally higher tyre wear) and b) EVs are typically heavier than their closest fossil equivalents, it's a non sequitur argument to suggest that EVs are somehow worse because of this.

I thought the argument was that a 500 mile range EV would be worse than a 250 mile range EV, because it'd need twice as much battery.

A quick google puts a 100kwh battery at 600kg, so at 5 m/kwh a 500 mile battery would weigh 300kg more than a 250 mile range.

Any car with 300kg of extra load (12 bags of sand) is going to use a bit more fuel, though it may actually be negligable.