Scam?

[Deleted User]

@Sg28 I've told him this, but he isn't listening.  He's been brainwashed.

jaypers

[Deleted User] said:

@Sg28 I've told him this, but he isn't listening.  He's been brainwashed.

He is vulnerable. Sounds overkill (but I think in this instance it’s warranted) but call the Police. Explain about your vulnerable relative being scammed. They may be able to help and even send someone round there. I know the police are stretched but there are a great many police initiatives to stop scams at present. Also make sure you call the Bank, as mentioned before. 

Rollinghome

eskbanker said:

Rollinghome said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:
If your relative don't take action themselves,  I suggest you report the issue as well as telling their bank what is occurring so they can take preventive action.

What preventive action do you think they can take if receiving a warning from a third party with no authority on the account?  How would you feel if your ability to pay someone was affected by something the bank had been told by (what is to them) a random stranger?

It means they can flag the customer as potentially vulnerable for instance and apply greater scrutiny to unusual transactions.

I'm not saying giving over the head of the account holder directly to their bank is my preferred response but it is an option. 

As for what they or the police/bank can do

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/news-and-insight/blog/vulnerable-victims-notifications-bringing-together-banks-and-law-enforcement

Fraud is usually reported via Action Fraud (https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/reporting-fraud-and-cyber-crime) and I would encourage the OP to assist their relative to report it.

I'm all for OP assisting their relative in reporting potential/likely fraud but still don't believe it's viable for OP to approach the relative's bank unilaterally and would be surprised if such an approach resulted in any action, although if the bank is advised by the police that a VVN might be appropriate then that would be different.

That's not my experience.

My mother developed dementia when she was still very young, just middle-aged, as her mother had before her.  As typically happens, the disease changed her whole character.

After my father died, when she was 70, we found around £1000 in her handbag and that she had been drawing out huge sums every week from her bank account that seemed to have vanished.  I went into the bank and explained what was happening. It was clear to them that something was amiss, and they agreed to give her a small sum, £10 I think, and more than enough for a week's shopping back in 1979, each time she came in.  They might have seen me with her but didn't ask for any proof of who I was.  She apparently made a huge fuss every time, including accusing them of stealing her money, and I was very grateful they put up with her.

So bank staff could be very helpful and sensible back then, and I'm sure would still be today. They may even have training now in what to do if a customer is thought to be acting irrationally. Nobody wants to see elderly people robbed.

After she died, we found the missing money squirrelled away all over the house. Thousands of it; the biggest cache under her pillow. We also found that she had told the milkman what she'd been doing, so probably half the neighbourhood knew.

The world was a very different place 45 years ago!  Among the many significant changes are the introduction of data protection legislation and transformation of financial services controls - it can doubtless be debated as to whether these are positive or not, but such an old example is unlikely to be relevant to what's likely to happen today if someone contacts a bank expecting to influence how another person's account is to be managed.

Mr E, while that can't be denied, and I'm sure you are trying to be helpful, it would more useful if you could get your head in a place where you concentrate on what can be done, rather than on what can't be done. 

Sometimes it's better to try and to fail, than to never try at all.

prowla

agent69 said:

Aidanmc said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

I assume the misrepresentation will be what was verbally assured, and that the £40k return will not appear anywhere in writing.

The OP has seen a copy of the form, but the relative did not want it posted here

@[Deleted User] Surly if you relatives personal details on the form were hidden you could show us the form?

So all the people on here saying it is unenforceable have no idea what it says?

Scammer: here's a form agreeing to give me £4000; I'm your bestest friend, so all you have to do is sign it.

Mark: Signed.

Scammer: OK, now give me the money.

Mark: Sorry, I've taken advice and I think you're a scammer.

Scammer: Doesn't matter - you've signed a legal document, so give me the money.

Mark: Take me to court!

Scammer: erm...

Malthusian

jaypers said:
He is vulnerable. Sounds overkill (but I think in this instance it’s warranted) but call the Police. 

As (as I suspected) the victim has convinced himself this isn't a scam and that he has to proceed to avoid losing face - "It seems like the more we try to convince him, the more he wants to prove us wrong" - getting the police round risks humiliating and annoying him even more. 

The police certainly won't do anything about the ongoing fraud beyond handing out a link to the Action Fraud call centre (which in turn will do nothing except log it on a database).

eskbanker said:a

I'm all for OP assisting their relative in reporting potential/likely fraud but still don't believe it's viable for OP to approach the relative's bank unilaterally and would be surprised if such an approach resulted in any action, although if the bank is advised by the police that a VVN might be appropriate then that would be different.

In general: There is nothing stopping the bank placing a note on their file to say that they have been warned that their customer may be vulnerable to detriment. If they ignored it they would be increasing the chance that they end up paying compo if their customer transfers their balance to a fraudster. 

In practice: Given the bank has apparently blocked this four times, the bank has already done all that can be expected without being warned by a third party, and the chance of them paying compo in this case is minimal. Especially if they refuse to undertake the transfer at all (even if OP confirms he wants to go ahead, has read all the scam warnings, etc) and OP's friend ends up drawing the money out as cash or buying gift cards or something. 

Aidanmc

Rollinghome said:

Aidanmc said:

Rollinghome said:

Aidanmc said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

I assume the misrepresentation will be what was verbally assured, and that the £40k return will not appear anywhere in writing.

The OP has seen a copy of the form, but the relative did not want it posted here

@[Deleted User] Surly if you relatives personal details on the form were hidden you could show us the form?

No one needs to see the form.  No "ifs" or "buts", if the basic details given in the first post are correct, then it's a SCAM, and an very well known one that has been used to steal money for many years.  So I can't really see how it would be helpful to have it seen by strangers on an internet forum who are unlikely to have any legal qualifications in contract law.

I'm not doubting that its a scam, but showing the form may help others how the scam is played out and tactics the scammers use

If you want to know how it works there are several reports here https://www.tradersdaytrading.com/company-takeover-scam-comments.html

You'll notice they mostly target privatisation stocks, which tend to have lots of elderly private shareholders on (or had been on) a publicly available shareholder's register.  Stocks in nominee account are more of a problem for scammers. You could probably find plenty more if you do a google and there's likely to be a few variations on the theme because it's been going for yonks.

And a sample of one of many for you:

Centrica Share Scam
by: Anonymous
I have been scammed and lost quite a lot of money but could have lost a lot more. I wish I had found this Website earlier. As with others, I received an unsolicited phone call from a lady in the USA working for Omnicom International Group, acting for a client who wished to acquire my 486 Centrica Shares at a premium because they were in the process of making a hostile take-over bid. I had to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement. They then found that I had a large number of Script Dividend Shares that I didn't know I had. They were offering £11.85 per share compared to the prevailing market value of £1.14. But, like others, I first had to pay an Indemnity Bond of over £4,500 which, as I know now, stupidly I did. I was then passed over to their lawyers at Popplewell Capital Group LLC. They found that that I had 3 warrants attached to each of my shares which meant that I could buy them for £3.50 and they would pay me £11.85 giving me a total return of over £187,000 for an outlay of around £40,000. By this time I had found this Website and declined the offer but strung along with them to see what happened. They next said that I would have to pay US tax of over £13,000 (which would be returnable) before I could receive my proceeds. I declined, and have not heard from them since. Had I agreed to buy the warrants and paid the tax I could have ended up sending them over £100,000!

--------

They aren't just interested in stealing the odd £4k.  They want every penny you've got and will keep trying until they get it or the mark twigs.

I understand exactly how the scam works.

I almost fell for a similar scam over 10 years ago!

If the scammers are still trying this type of scam it must be still profitable - ie. people are still falling for it!

So the more info out there about it the better, so any new victims have a better chance of realising its a scam before parting with any money.

Not everyone knows about these scams, and the scammers are very manipulative and can brainwash people into believing them!

[Deleted User]

Thanks everyone for all your comments.

Good news at last!  I had emailed my relative various links from this thread, along with the clip by @Rollinghome which is almost exactly the same scam with which he has been targeted.
I tried to phone this morning but he was out, obviously on the way to ask his bank to transfer the money to Indonisia (believe it or not)!  
My relative was beginning to 'see the light', and the bank suggested he see their scam adviser, who told him it was 99% certain to be a scam, and refused to agree to doing the transfer.  Which everyone had been saying all along.
He told them about the contract which he had signed, but they said - as everyone else has been saying, that it is meaningless, advised him to block the number which he is going to do.
However, someone is phoning him tonight about the transfer which he says he will tell them is not going to happen.  Then block the number, along with any others who try to contact him
Thanks everyone for your input and links, I think we've won at last!

refluxer

[Deleted User] said:

He told them about the contract which he had signed, but they said - as everyone else has been saying, that it is meaningless, advised him to block the number which he is going to do.
However, someone is phoning him tonight about the transfer which he says he will tell them is not going to happen.  Then block the number, along with any others who try to contact him
Thanks everyone for your input and links, I think we've won at last!

Great to hear that he's finally getting the message - I would just be concerned that, as this scam got so close to working, it's likely that the scammers will try absolutely everything to get him back on board and they're likely to be very persuasive, so not interacting with them at all would be the best course of action.

As phone numbers can be spoofed, blocking them may not be enough to stop further contact so I would advise that he doesn't answer the phone to unknown numbers for at least a few weeks (although probably longer) and to let his answering machine/service filter out the unwanted calls.

UncleK

Well..................they are smooth and also threatening talkers, so I do hope he can stick to his guns. It will be a great victory if he can, and will make a good story/example for this forum and hopefully wider. Fingers crossed.

Eyeful

 Let us know ether way. As you say, it would be better if he blocked the number right away.
If he's with BT, get him to use their "Call Protect" it's free. Otherwise buy him a True Call device for Xmas.
https://www.truecall.co.uk/
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/cordless-phones/article/how-to-block-nuisance-calls-aHkHz1m7wCes