Scam?

eskbanker

gt94sss2 said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:
If your relative don't take action themselves,  I suggest you report the issue as well as telling their bank what is occurring so they can take preventive action.

What preventive action do you think they can take if receiving a warning from a third party with no authority on the account?  How would you feel if your ability to pay someone was affected by something the bank had been told by (what is to them) a random stranger?

It means they can flag the customer as potentially vulnerable for instance and apply greater scrutiny to unusual transactions.

I'm not saying giving over the head of the account holder directly to their bank is my preferred response but it is an option. 

As for what they or the police/bank can do

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/news-and-insight/blog/vulnerable-victims-notifications-bringing-together-banks-and-law-enforcement

Fraud is usually reported via Action Fraud (https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/reporting-fraud-and-cyber-crime) and I would encourage the OP to assist their relative to report it.

I'm all for OP assisting their relative in reporting potential/likely fraud but still don't believe it's viable for OP to approach the relative's bank unilaterally and would be surprised if such an approach resulted in any action, although if the bank is advised by the police that a VVN might be appropriate then that would be different.

Reaper

[Deleted User] said:

But it's not good news!  The American 'office' have been on the phone to him this evening for over an hour, advising him how to pay!  Unfortunately, he followed their advice and tried sending the money through his bank, but the transfer was rejected 4 times!

If that doesn't shout Scam, then I don't know what does!

However, he is determined to go into his bank branch tomorrow morning to ask them to transfer the money.  Both myself and my son, plus all the links sent, and the whole of MSE seems unable to convince him. 
 
He looks like a lost cause, I'm hoping someone at his bank can talk some sense into him, but thanks everyone for your help.

Unbelievable. Is he seriously accepting it is a scam but going through with it anyway! If he does knowingly give away his money then the bank may refuse to reimburse him.

On the other had if he still is not 100% convinced it is a scam the key fact to stick under his nose is, as pointed out by gt94sss2, that the FCA has this company listed on its warnings page.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the link, but am sure he's already read it.

My relative is in his 80's, but is (usually) security and financially alert.  He's been using computers and iphones for over 20 years, and should be able to recognise a scam when he sees it.

It seems like the more we try to convince him, the more he wants to prove us wrong!

masonic

Reaper said:
Unbelievable. Is he seriously accepting it is a scam but going through with it anyway! If he does knowingly give away his money then the bank may refuse to reimburse him.

It's also possible that they will refund and recover the cost from the rest of their customers. Lose-lose.

[Deleted User] said:

It seems like the more we try to convince him, the more he wants to prove us wrong!

Yes, and my prediction is that when he does eventually realise what has happened, he won't be angry at the scammers for swindling him, he'll be angry at you all for making him feel stupid. Unjustified of course.

mikb

[Deleted User] said:

However, he is determined to go into his bank branch tomorrow morning to ask them to transfer the money.  Both myself and my son, plus all the links sent, and the whole of MSE seems unable to convince him.

Hopefully the bank will explain why they refused it, and will also look with appropriate suspicion on any attempts to e.g. withdraw it as cash or other means. The bank, I hope, will recognise what is happening here when he goes into the branch with this story. They will want to block it not just to protect him, but to protect themselves from the inevitable being forced/shamed into refunding his money because the bank will be seen as complicit in the scam.

Is it possible for someone to go with him, just to be 100% sure the bank get the tone of what is happening here?

jaypers

Contact the Bank. Explain that you know they won’t talk to you specifically about one of their customers but you want to report that a money transfer in relation to a scam will be taking place in one of their branches to a vulnerable person. Clearly this person IS vulnerable from what you’ve said. I take it you know which branch. Based on what you tell them, the Bank WILL act on it and do their own due diligence with regards to the request from their customer to make a payment. Hopefully that will be enough to stop the money from being paid. 

gravel_2

Honestly it sounds like he's desperate for the 40k and he's just talking about the contract to appease you.

Rollinghome

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:
If your relative don't take action themselves,  I suggest you report the issue as well as telling their bank what is occurring so they can take preventive action.

What preventive action do you think they can take if receiving a warning from a third party with no authority on the account?  How would you feel if your ability to pay someone was affected by something the bank had been told by (what is to them) a random stranger?

It means they can flag the customer as potentially vulnerable for instance and apply greater scrutiny to unusual transactions.

I'm not saying giving over the head of the account holder directly to their bank is my preferred response but it is an option. 

As for what they or the police/bank can do

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/news-and-insight/blog/vulnerable-victims-notifications-bringing-together-banks-and-law-enforcement

Fraud is usually reported via Action Fraud (https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/reporting-fraud-and-cyber-crime) and I would encourage the OP to assist their relative to report it.

I'm all for OP assisting their relative in reporting potential/likely fraud but still don't believe it's viable for OP to approach the relative's bank unilaterally and would be surprised if such an approach resulted in any action, although if the bank is advised by the police that a VVN might be appropriate then that would be different.

That's not my experience.

My mother developed dementia when she was still very young, just middle-aged, as her mother had before her.  As typically happens, the disease changed her whole character.

After my father died, when she was 70, we found around £1000 in her handbag and that she had been drawing out huge sums every week from her bank account that seemed to have vanished.  I went into the bank and explained what was happening. It was clear to them that something was amiss, and they agreed to give her a small sum, £10 I think, and more than enough for a week's shopping back in 1979, each time she came in.  They might have seen me with her but didn't ask for any proof of who I was.  She apparently made a huge fuss every time, including accusing them of stealing her money, and I was very grateful they put up with her.

So bank staff could be very helpful and sensible back then, and I'm sure would still be today. They may even have training now in what to do if a customer is thought to be acting irrationally. Nobody wants to see elderly people robbed.

After she died, we found the missing money squirrelled away all over the house. Thousands of it; the biggest cache under her pillow. We also found that she had told the milkman what she'd been doing, so probably half the neighbourhood knew.

agent69

gt94sss2 said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

With respect, your post and others suggesting things like 14 day cooling off periods are not helpful as they wrongly suggest that this might not be a scam.

Nobody is suggesting this isn't a scam, but does that automatically make the written document illegal or unenforceable? Say the agreement just says 'you agree to give us £4k and we agree to invest it for you in certain stocks and shares'. Is that illegal?. The scam bit is the promise to return the investment 10 fold, which doubtless is not recorded in writing.

masonic

agent69 said:

gt94sss2 said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

With respect, your post and others suggesting things like 14 day cooling off periods are not helpful as they wrongly suggest that this might not be a scam.

Nobody is suggesting this isn't a scam, but does that automatically make the written document illegal or unenforceable? Say the agreement just says 'you agree to give us £4k and we agree to invest it for you in certain stocks and shares'. Is that illegal?. The scam bit is the promise to return the investment 10 fold, which doubtless is not recorded in writing.

It would be illegal unless the "we" in your hypothetical was FCA authorised and had the required permissions. I believe the statement from the FCA about this firm not being authorised has been posted more than once. Unless you think the contract isn't for the provision of regulated financial services at all? Perhaps a contract to supply a replica share certificate for £4000?