Scam?

jaypers

@[Deleted User] Please can you keep us updated what happens with this. Really hope it’s a good outcome. I not only want to know that the scammers fail, it will also be useful for some of the issues I encounter with people to know what works if I ever see a similar scenario. People seem to easily become scared of perceived ‘rules’ as per the case here regarding a signature, and that is exactly what scammers prey on.  

Malthusian

silvercue said:

You could even talk to a solicitor who will tell them for a small charge.

Any morally upstanding solicitor would answer the question "can a fraudster enforce a fraudulent contract" for free, although if the OP's friend needs to pay for a full consultation to persuade him, it would be money well spent.

[Deleted User] said:

We've told him that the so called contract should have a 14 day get out clause, but he isn't listening.
Going to contact him again today and keep nagging.

There's a risk that is doing more harm than good, as he now has his defences up, and by constantly telling him this is a scam and he is a fool (if only by extension), you may have made him feel that he can't back out without losing face. This article is about MLMs rather than this kind of scam but nonetheless much of it is relevant.

Your friend will take any criticism personally. They will see it as an attack on them and their dreams. They have had it drummed into them that their hopes and dreams can be achieved by this amazing company. People who stand in their way are just haters and do not understand how wonderful this opportunity is. By disagreeing with it you are criticising their choice and jeopardising their dreams. They genuinely won’t understand why you are trying to destroy their dreams.

Tell him that he's convinced you that you're wrong and you're going to invest £10,000 of your own money (I'm not suggesting you actually do it). Do not sound sarcastic. See if that shakes him at all. If he says "terrific, well done" he is lost to you, and you will have to wait for him to either lose his money or have a Road to Damascus Moment in the middle of the night.

(I'm not 100% serious but you need to think outside the box, not repeatedly try the same thing and expect a different result.)

wmb194

At the risk of laying it on too thickly, this also isn't the way stakes are built in companies i.e. by random calls to random small time investors*. 

They buy large amounts in the market and/or directly from existing institutional investors e.g., the way India's Airtel bought c.23% in BT this week from France's Altice. When they exceed c.5% it has to be announced to the market. Then when the stake exceeds about 20% they have to announce to the market whether or not they intend to bid for the remainder of the shares and stop buying. This isn't done in secret via non-disclosure agreements and purchases with small time retail investors at prices many multiples of the current price.

*I'm guessing he owns or has owned shares in Centrica or other British companies in certificated form: they find people's names and addresses on old share registers.

redpete

If I was in this situation and getting nowhere with the relative, I would seriously consider contacting their local police and seeing if they would be able to pay him a visit.

Sg28

Marcon said:

MeteredOut said:

If you want some fun, play along, tell them scammer that the £4K has been transferred. Mock up face "transfer confirmation" emails from the bank and send them on.

A truly stupid suggestion...

Not something I would suggest others to do, however I have done this myself over the years when I used to have more time available. 

I had one scammer stretched out over the course of 2 months. Ive had them send me personal information including a selfie! And my best was when I convinced a scammer to book a flight to South Africa to collect money in cash.
I also had a long good natured phone chat with a scammer about how much money he made, ethics and his justification for doing it. 

Its all great fun but you have to remember these people are dangerous criminals often involved in international gangs and you need to take efforts to keep yourself secure.  

Gary1984

redpete said:

If I was in this situation and getting nowhere with the relative, I would seriously consider contacting their local police and seeing if they would be able to pay him a visit.

This is an excellent suggestion. The main leverage that the scammers will try to use to get paid is the threat of legal action due to the 'contract' that has been signed. If the police tell him he doesn't need to pay and he can refer his nice American friend on to a contact at the police fraud division that would probably reassure him? 'Someone at the Police Fraud department just wants to check the details of the deal before I send money'. They'd probably run a mile?

flaneurs_lobster

Gary1984 said:

 'Someone at the Police Fraud department just wants to check the details of the deal before I send money'. They'd probably run a mile?

Really? They'd be more likely to try and sign the police officer up to the same deal.

These people have no fear.

aroominyork

dunstonh said:

 But he believes that because he has signed some form of contract he will be forced to pay. 

Nope.   A contract does not enable a scammer.  The only way a scammer could enforce the contract is to take him to court.  A scammer isn't going to want to go anywhere near a court.

This is the single most important piece of information for the scamee. Can someone post some legal sources to corroborate it?

[Deleted User]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I've just spoken to my relative again, and asked him to look again at this thread which he says he has done.

He is becoming concerned himself that it could potentially be a scam, but still feels that the document that he signed is legally binding.  He has emailed me with copies of the document with signed signature, but when I asked his permission to copy to the website he was unwilling.  It seems to refer to a company called Greyt and Lewis, (name corrected) with Fidelity as insurer.  I have to admit, it all looks legal.

Some associate of the American woman is going to contact him again later today informing him how to pay!  It seems they want him to pay using some sort of transfer system, but he says he will only pay by credit card or some means which offers protection.

I also mentioned about a 14 day get out clause, but apparently, according to the woman American law doesn't have this protection.

He is going to contact us again later.

Malthusian

aroominyork said:

This is the single most important piece of information for the scamee. Can someone post some legal sources to corroborate it?

I found this article. It is aimed at contractors but covers the essential point (unenforceability of an illegal contract) in a very accessible way, without lots of legalese. 

The problem is that "the courts won't enforce an illegal contract" first requires OP's friend to believe it is a scam, and I am worried that he thinks he's going to get the money and is using "I have to invest or they'll sue me" as an excuse. That said, the fact that the friend approached OP does suggest he is looking for a way out. 

If it hasn't been tried already, OP could also point out to their friend that if the investment opportunity is real, there is no point in the scammer suing them, because they will have plenty of other investors beating down their door for a return of 900% within months.

Why would you spend thousands of pounds on lawyers and court fees to spend years extracting £4,000 from some schmuck, when you could invest those thousands of pounds into your takeover and turn them into ten times as much?