Scam?

jaypers

agent69 said:

gt94sss2 said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

With respect, your post and others suggesting things like 14 day cooling off periods are not helpful as they wrongly suggest that this might not be a scam.

Nobody is suggesting this isn't a scam, but does that automatically make the written document illegal or unenforceable? Say the agreement just says 'you agree to give us £4k and we agree to invest it for you in certain stocks and shares'. Is that illegal?. The scam bit is the promise to return the investment 10 fold, which doubtless is not recorded in writing.

The document is unenforceable as it is for an illegal act. There is no investment taking place. Nothing is being purchased, ie: the shares. It is a con. And like anyone would even attempt to enforce it, which they couldn’t! Why are we debating this point? 

AmityNeon

[Deleted User] said:

Thanks very much for the information and links, have emailed them to my relative..

But it's not good news! The American 'office' have been on the phone to him this evening for over an hour, advising him how to pay! Unfortunately, he followed their advice and tried sending the money through his bank, but the transfer was rejected 4 times!

If that doesn't shout Scam, then I don't know what does!

However, he is determined to go into his bank branch tomorrow morning to ask them to transfer the money. Both myself and my son, plus all the links sent, and the whole of MSE seems unable to convince him.

He looks like a lost cause, I'm hoping someone at his bank can talk some sense into him, but thanks everyone for your help.

That's a shame. If the bank succumbs to his insistence (after ensuring they protect themselves first of course), then he must accept the loss. It's obviously money he's prepared to lose, like with any high-risk investment.

If he doesn't accept his status as a victim and protect himself, all his personal details will proliferate and he will become a prime target for future scams and spear phishing.

Rollinghome

Aidanmc said:

Rollinghome said:

Aidanmc said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

I assume the misrepresentation will be what was verbally assured, and that the £40k return will not appear anywhere in writing.

The OP has seen a copy of the form, but the relative did not want it posted here

@[Deleted User] Surly if you relatives personal details on the form were hidden you could show us the form?

No one needs to see the form.  No "ifs" or "buts", if the basic details given in the first post are correct, then it's a SCAM, and an very well known one that has been used to steal money for many years.  So I can't really see how it would be helpful to have it seen by strangers on an internet forum who are unlikely to have any legal qualifications in contract law.

I'm not doubting that its a scam, but showing the form may help others how the scam is played out and tactics the scammers use

If you want to know how it works there are several reports here https://www.tradersdaytrading.com/company-takeover-scam-comments.html

You'll notice they mostly target privatisation stocks, which tend to have lots of elderly private shareholders on (or had been on) a publicly available shareholder's register.  Stocks in nominee account are more of a problem for scammers. You could probably find plenty more if you do a google and there's likely to be a few variations on the theme because it's been going for yonks.

And a sample of one of many for you:

Centrica Share Scam
by: Anonymous
I have been scammed and lost quite a lot of money but could have lost a lot more. I wish I had found this Website earlier. As with others, I received an unsolicited phone call from a lady in the USA working for Omnicom International Group, acting for a client who wished to acquire my 486 Centrica Shares at a premium because they were in the process of making a hostile take-over bid. I had to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement. They then found that I had a large number of Script Dividend Shares that I didn't know I had. They were offering £11.85 per share compared to the prevailing market value of £1.14. But, like others, I first had to pay an Indemnity Bond of over £4,500 which, as I know now, stupidly I did. I was then passed over to their lawyers at Popplewell Capital Group LLC. They found that that I had 3 warrants attached to each of my shares which meant that I could buy them for £3.50 and they would pay me £11.85 giving me a total return of over £187,000 for an outlay of around £40,000. By this time I had found this Website and declined the offer but strung along with them to see what happened. They next said that I would have to pay US tax of over £13,000 (which would be returnable) before I could receive my proceeds. I declined, and have not heard from them since. Had I agreed to buy the warrants and paid the tax I could have ended up sending them over £100,000!

--------

They aren't just interested in stealing the odd £4k.  They want every penny you've got and will keep trying until they get it or the mark twigs.

gt94sss2

agent69 said:

gt94sss2 said:

agent69 said:

I'm curious about all the people saying it is an illegal contract that is not enforceable. Has anyone seen what was actually signed?

With respect, your post and others suggesting things like 14 day cooling off periods are not helpful as they wrongly suggest that this might not be a scam.

Nobody is suggesting this isn't a scam, but does that automatically make the written document illegal or unenforceable? Say the agreement just says 'you agree to give us £4k and we agree to invest it for you in certain stocks and shares'. Is that illegal?. 

Yes, it is illegal unless they are authorised to operate in the UK which they are not.

This is a clear example of a boiler room fraud.

https://www.fca.org.uk/scamsmart

https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/a-z-of-fraud/share-sale-and-investment-fraud

baser999

jaypers said:

Contact the Bank. Explain that you know they won’t talk to you specifically about one of their customers but you want to report that a money transfer in relation to a scam will be taking place in one of their branches to a vulnerable person. Clearly this person IS vulnerable from what you’ve said. I take it you know which branch. Based on what you tell them, the Bank WILL act on it and do their own due diligence with regards to the request from their customer to make a payment. Hopefully that will be enough to stop the money from being paid. 

OP is it possible that you or someone else in the family can make time to get to him in person, rather than send him emails and calling him? If that’s not possible then suggest you go along with @jaypers advice and call the bank. 

Hoenir

AmityNeon said:

[Deleted User] said:

Thanks very much for the information and links, have emailed them to my relative..

But it's not good news! The American 'office' have been on the phone to him this evening for over an hour, advising him how to pay! Unfortunately, he followed their advice and tried sending the money through his bank, but the transfer was rejected 4 times!

If that doesn't shout Scam, then I don't know what does!

However, he is determined to go into his bank branch tomorrow morning to ask them to transfer the money. Both myself and my son, plus all the links sent, and the whole of MSE seems unable to convince him.

He looks like a lost cause, I'm hoping someone at his bank can talk some sense into him, but thanks everyone for your help.

That's a shame. If the bank succumbs to his insistence (after ensuring they protect themselves first of course), then he must accept the loss. It's obviously money he's prepared to lose, like with any high-risk investment.

If he doesn't accept his status as a victim, all his personal details will proliferate and he will become a prime target for future scams and spearphishing.

Hopefully the bank will make every attempt to make the transaction as onerous as possible. 

Nardy

I have twice been told to F Off by scammers. On a separate one occasion, this was car accident scam, I called the guy on the other end of the phone a 'con merchant'. His reply was 'I'm not a con merchant, I'm a con artist'. He then laughed politely, said goodbye and ended the call.

eskbanker

Rollinghome said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:

eskbanker said:

gt94sss2 said:
If your relative don't take action themselves,  I suggest you report the issue as well as telling their bank what is occurring so they can take preventive action.

What preventive action do you think they can take if receiving a warning from a third party with no authority on the account?  How would you feel if your ability to pay someone was affected by something the bank had been told by (what is to them) a random stranger?

It means they can flag the customer as potentially vulnerable for instance and apply greater scrutiny to unusual transactions.

I'm not saying giving over the head of the account holder directly to their bank is my preferred response but it is an option. 

As for what they or the police/bank can do

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/news-and-insight/blog/vulnerable-victims-notifications-bringing-together-banks-and-law-enforcement

Fraud is usually reported via Action Fraud (https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/reporting-fraud-and-cyber-crime) and I would encourage the OP to assist their relative to report it.

I'm all for OP assisting their relative in reporting potential/likely fraud but still don't believe it's viable for OP to approach the relative's bank unilaterally and would be surprised if such an approach resulted in any action, although if the bank is advised by the police that a VVN might be appropriate then that would be different.

That's not my experience.

My mother developed dementia when she was still very young, just middle-aged, as her mother had before her.  As typically happens, the disease changed her whole character.

After my father died, when she was 70, we found around £1000 in her handbag and that she had been drawing out huge sums every week from her bank account that seemed to have vanished.  I went into the bank and explained what was happening. It was clear to them that something was amiss, and they agreed to give her a small sum, £10 I think, and more than enough for a week's shopping back in 1979, each time she came in.  They might have seen me with her but didn't ask for any proof of who I was.  She apparently made a huge fuss every time, including accusing them of stealing her money, and I was very grateful they put up with her.

So bank staff could be very helpful and sensible back then, and I'm sure would still be today. They may even have training now in what to do if a customer is thought to be acting irrationally. Nobody wants to see elderly people robbed.

After she died, we found the missing money squirrelled away all over the house. Thousands of it; the biggest cache under her pillow. We also found that she had told the milkman what she'd been doing, so probably half the neighbourhood knew.

The world was a very different place 45 years ago!  Among the many significant changes are the introduction of data protection legislation and transformation of financial services controls - it can doubtless be debated as to whether these are positive or not, but such an old example is unlikely to be relevant to what's likely to happen today if someone contacts a bank expecting to influence how another person's account is to be managed.

[Deleted User]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

The post by @Rollinghome (with copied and pasted text) is exactly the same scam which my relative is unwittingly experiencing.  I have emailed a copy to him, and hope he sees SENSE!

Unfortunately, I have to go out this morning, but will catch up later.

Sg28

[Deleted User] said:

Thanks everyone for your comments.

The post by @Rollinghome (with copied and pasted text) is exactly the same scam which my relative is unwittingly experiencing.  I have emailed a copy to him, and hope he sees SENSE!

Unfortunately, I have to go out this morning, but will catch up later.

Be sure to make him aware that if he does send the money its likely not the end of the scam. They will likely pressure him in various ways to send even more money. Possible mascarading as a completely different company who are "helping" him recover his lost £4000 in a new advance fee scam.