Septic tank (shared) upgrade - what would you do?

AJC211

My home insurance will cover me for legal fees relating to neighbours who cause a ‘nuisance’. Threatening to cut me off from my sewage system is definitely a nuisance 😂Waiting to hear back from them but also getting legal advice from my conveyancing lawyer who has been brilliant. 

Technically I probably have a case for litigation against them for refusing to replace an illegal sewage system but no way do I want to cause that sort of trouble, and anyway the wording of the easement is a bit squiffy so it’s not certain a court would see things in my favour. I’d rather not risk it!

i always like to things by the book and keep the peace so don’t plan on blocking any one’s sewage pipes 😝

ThisIsWeird

AJC211 said:

My home insurance will cover me for legal fees relating to neighbours who cause a ‘nuisance’. Threatening to cut me off from my sewage system is definitely a nuisance 😂Waiting to hear back from them but also getting legal advice from my conveyancing lawyer who has been brilliant. 

Technically I probably have a case for litigation against them for refusing to replace an illegal sewage system but no way do I want to cause that sort of trouble, and anyway the wording of the easement is a bit squiffy so it’s not certain a court would see things in my favour. I’d rather not risk it!

i always like to things by the book and keep the peace so don’t plan on blocking any one’s sewage pipes 😝

Absolutely.

Do not over-react. Do not pre-empt. Do not take unilateral action!

But do cover yourself by responding - in an evidence way - to all their silly threats.

You have LP, which will kick in to protect you if they act against you. That's perfect. What you need to do is to demonstrate that you did 'warn' them. In what manner did they deliver, "Threatening to cut me off from my sewage system is definitely a nuisance..."? And how did you reply? Hopefully in an equally-evidence manner, pointing out that 'they would be liable for any damage caused to your property as a result'? Cool. They would be utter idiots if they went ahead.

AfaIk (but that isn't very far, but is based on what seems reasonable), the specific easements/covenants in all your respective deeds refer to your current system and its current general layout, and would continue following repair, maintenance, and like-for-like replacement. In general, such easements allow for such 'passage' based on what is already there, but will likely also permit passage if there are no other reasonable alternatives. Say, for example, that the main sewer system ran close enough to your properties to allow connection, and the only way your neighbours could run their new connection to this was via your land (and vice versa), I understand it is usually the case they will have that right. However, if they want to run it through your land to avoid an equally-accessible route which would involve digging up their own front drive, then 'non'. And I cannot see the existing easement provision allowing for a 'change', one that is simply not required, and for which there are obviously alternatives - such as keeping it as it is!

So, play the waiting game. Make sure you can evidence you 'putting them on notice' of their liability should they block or disconnect your drain, and sit back...

AND, don't forget the issue about the possibility of you remaining 1/3rd liable for the ongoing costs even if you go it alone. Quite possibly, if the other two continue to demonstrate their intransigence and leave you with no reasonable option, then you may be able to extract yourself from the existing obligations in the deeds, but you'd obviously need legal advice on this.

Have a good look through your LP policy terms - I've seen them where they will actually allow you to find a specialist solicitor if you have good reason to suspect (and they agree) that they cannot handle the case - they will agree to finance this.

AJC211

ThisIsWeird said:

AJC211 said:

My home insurance will cover me for legal fees relating to neighbours who cause a ‘nuisance’. Threatening to cut me off from my sewage system is definitely a nuisance 😂Waiting to hear back from them but also getting legal advice from my conveyancing lawyer who has been brilliant. 

Technically I probably have a case for litigation against them for refusing to replace an illegal sewage system but no way do I want to cause that sort of trouble, and anyway the wording of the easement is a bit squiffy so it’s not certain a court would see things in my favour. I’d rather not risk it!

i always like to things by the book and keep the peace so don’t plan on blocking any one’s sewage pipes 😝

Absolutely.

Do not over-react. Do not pre-empt. Do not take unilateral action!

But do cover yourself by responding - in an evidence way - to all their silly threats.

You have LP, which will kick in to protect you if they act against you. That's perfect. What you need to do is to demonstrate that you did 'warn' them. In what manner did they deliver, "Threatening to cut me off from my sewage system is definitely a nuisance..."? And how did you reply? Hopefully in an equally-evidence manner, pointing out that 'they would be liable for any damage caused to your property as a result'? Cool. They would be utter idiots if they went ahead.

AfaIk (but that isn't very far, but is based on what seems reasonable), the specific easements/covenants in all your respective deeds refer to your current system and its current general layout, and would continue following repair, maintenance, and like-for-like replacement. In general, such easements allow for such 'passage' based on what is already there, but will likely also permit passage if there are no other reasonable alternatives. Say, for example, that the main sewer system ran close enough to your properties to allow connection, and the only way your neighbours could run their new connection to this was via your land (and vice versa), I understand it is usually the case they will have that right. However, if they want to run it through your land to avoid an equally-accessible route which would involve digging up their own front drive, then 'non'. And I cannot see the existing easement provision allowing for a 'change', one that is simply not required, and for which there are obviously alternatives - such as keeping it as it is!

So, play the waiting game. Make sure you can evidence you 'putting them on notice' of their liability should they block or disconnect your drain, and sit back...

AND, don't forget the issue about the possibility of you remaining 1/3rd liable for the ongoing costs even if you go it alone. Quite possibly, if the other two continue to demonstrate their intransigence and leave you with no reasonable option, then you may be able to extract yourself from the existing obligations in the deeds, but you'd obviously need legal advice on this.

Have a good look through your LP policy terms - I've seen them where they will actually allow you to find a specialist solicitor if you have good reason to suspect (and they agree) that they cannot handle the case - they will agree to finance this.

Very helpful thank you.

They have not threatened to cut me off the existing system. But in my reply I will make clear that I have a right to use the existing system until I am able to switch to an alternative. 

I think they want to share a new system, which will mean one neighbour will want to continue to use the drain that goes close to my
house and through my garden in order to reach the other neighbour. This is purely so that they can avoid the extra hassle and cost of getting their own individual system. I am asking my lawyer whether I can refuse them using this drain for their new system, as it massively complicates me having my own 😬

The way they’ve written their email implies that they assume I will accept one of their two
options (all the system or at least the drainage on my land), and that if I don’t they will club together without me, and I will have to use the old system and take on all the costs for it. Goodness knows how they’d put their own system in without a whole load of jiggery pokery with the drains 🤪🤷‍♀️

AJC211

theoretica said:

Are they imagining that they could turf you, as the middle property, off their shared system but still have pipes crossing your land so that they could share a system?  Or are they thinking about three separate systems - which might be no bad thing?

They want to club together, they’re family, so this would keep costs down for them. So yes they’d still want pipes crossing my land. I don’t know if they’d have the right to do that. Obviously they currently do as part of the current drain and septic system. But if they want to leave the old system then I don’t think their right to use the old pipes extends to using them for a new system. I’m checking the legal side of that.

theoretica

Unless I am envisaging things wrongly, your drainage pipes and those of one neighbour must meet up on your land.  So insisting that they get to continue to use those pipes, but your sewage needs to go elsewhere seems an interesting proposition.

How far away are you from mains drainage?  The house I grew up in had a septic tank until we and neighbours paid to connect to the mains.  It may not be geographically possible, but is something else to be sure was checked.

AJC211

theoretica said:

Unless I am envisaging things wrongly, your drainage pipes and those of one vneighbour must meet up on your land.  So insisting that they get to continue to use those pipes, but your sewage needs to go elsewhere seems an interesting proposition.

How far away are you from mains drainage?  The house I grew up in had a septic tank until we and neighbours paid to connect to the mains.  It may not be geographically possible, but is something else to be sure was checked.

Sadly no mains drainage near us, the perils of living in an old farm
cottage down a farm track. Even the nearby big posh houses have septic tanks 😂

propertyrental

AJC211 said:

....

Technically I probably have a case for litigation against them for refusing to replace an illegal sewage system but no way do I want to cause that sort of trouble, and anyway the wording of the easement is a bit squiffy so it’s not certain a court would see things in my favour. I’d rather not risk it!

i always like to things by the book and keep the peace so don’t plan on blocking any one’s sewage pipes 😝

Not 'technically'. Legally. Despite the " the wording of the easement (being) a bit squiffy " I am convinced a court would see things your way. Highly unlikely a court would ignore the combination of (even a squiffy) easement, plus established use over (X?) years, plus necessity for a sewage system.

I repeat my earlier post:

Irrespective of the registered but vague easement, it is possible/ likely that you could claim

* an easement of necessity

* an easement of common intention

* a quasi-easement

But legal action eg an injunction is, I agree, last resort, if they deny your easement is valid once the 'existing' system is removed.

Please keep us updated......!

AJC211

propertyrental said:

AJC211 said:

....

Technically I probably have a case for litigation against them for refusing to replace an illegal sewage system but no way do I want to cause that sort of trouble, and anyway the wording of the easement is a bit squiffy so it’s not certain a court would see things in my favour. I’d rather not risk it!

i always like to things by the book and keep the peace so don’t plan on blocking any one’s sewage pipes 😝

Not 'technically'. Legally. Despite the " the wording of the easement (being) a bit squiffy " I am convinced a court would see things your way. Highly unlikely a court would ignore the combination of (even a squiffy) easement, plus established use over (X?) years, plus necessity for a sewage system.

I repeat my earlier post:

Irrespective of the registered but vague easement, it is possible/ likely that you could claim

* an easement of necessity

* an easement of common intention

* a quasi-easement

But legal action eg an injunction is, I agree, last resort, if they deny your easement is valid once the 'existing' system is removed.

Please keep us updated......!

Yes I could take the legal route and prove that my easement continues and I voided replacing the current system. That would force them to get a new shared system. But ultimately that’s only a route I’d take if I could cope with the stress of taking the legal route, accept the negative relationship effects that will have, and actually WANT a shared system. I’ve decided I don’t want any of those three things. For the sake of having my own system and maintaining some vague relationship with them, I am willing to spend more and get my own system. 

Whether I still need to put an injunction on them doing anything to the current system remains to be seen. I could do an emergency one if they mess with the system but they could do that while I’m on holiday! I wouldn’t put it past them, I’ve lost all trust in them. Hopefully they will agree that we have to be able to use the current system until we are able to switch over to an alternative 

AJC211

My draft reply. I will probably send it at 11.59pm on Wednesday...(joking, I'm not that petty! I will probably put a holding reply over as I'm waiting for a quote):

"I'm sorry to hear you are unhappy with the option we discussed with XYZ; I had hoped we had finally identified a shared system solution that addressed everyone's concerns, since it avoided putting all/part of the system on my property, avoided digging up any of X's garden/field, and used X's preferred location for the plant itself. 

It's a shame the current system isn't being replaced, and that we haven't been able to find an alternative, new shared option that is mutually agreeable to all parties, but I understand your wish to draw to a close this period of trying to find a new shared system solution. This being the case, it seems we will need to pursue individual systems. 

This does have its advantages, not least the fact that we can avoid the involvement of legal professionals, as there will be no need for any easements for sewage equipment crossing/being sited on other people's property. If you are correct in your interpretation of the easement (that it relates only to this specific system/tank, and so any future systems, even if shared, would not come under the same easement), then our rights to use the sewage pipes leading to the tank, the tank itself and the outflow drainage system all end at the point the old system is no longer in use. It would be good to avoid legal involvement as it may be that the legal profession would interpret the easement to include replacement of the current system (e.g. upgrading it to meet new regulations), which would open a can of worms that we'd all probably rather not open! Hopefully we can just get our own individual systems, avoid legal fees/new easements, and be done with sewage logistics!"

The two legal questions will remain unanswered; whether a court would uphold the easement as including renewal (ie force them to replace it on their land); whether neighbour A can continue to use the old sewage pipe that goes through my garden (B) to get to neighbour C, so that they can share a tank to reduce costs and garden digging. My lawyer says that in theory those pipes are specific to the tank they supply, so once that tank is obsolete, the pipes and the rights to cross my property is also obsolete....but that's a bit tenuous! No less tenuous than their insistence that the current easement doesn't include renewal and ends when the old system is decommissioned. Calling their bluff I guess. If they use the pipes across my garden it adds a significant challenge to me getting my own system. 

MeteredOut

On your last point, if an agreement is made between you all to abandon the existing system, you could argue that you want to (and have the right to) remove/decommission all existing pipework that is part of that system on your property, so that you can install your own new system.

I'd tend to agree with your lawyer that the easement only allows your neighbours use of those pipes within the context of the existing system. I'm not convinced is is tenuous at all. But, I can't see that point being decided 100% unless one of the parties decides to take things further, legally.

Personally, I'd be more explicit: "If we can't agree on a replacement shared system, we can each get our own system and, as per my legal advice, the existing pipes on my land are no longer available for shared use". Though perhaps not that blunt