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Septic tank (shared) upgrade - what would you do?

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Comments

  • propertyrental
    propertyrental Posts: 3,391 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Irrespective of the registered but vague easement, it is possible/ likely that you could claim
    * an easement of necessity
    * an easement of common intention
    * a quasi-easement


  • AJC211
    AJC211 Posts: 83 Forumite
    Fourth Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    UPDATE!

    I got a quote for a system that went in the yard where the neighbours wanted it, AND used the current drainage system. This avoids digging up their garden (which is what they wanted) and avoids using my land (which is what I stipulated). 

    They have declined this solution. 

    They have said the only options they accept are all of it on my land, or the drainage on my land. 

    They have insisted on one particular installer and sewage system, despite me having concerns about both. 

    They have given me 48h in which to give my final answer. 

    They have said if I don't join the shared system they insist upon, then I am on my own. 

    They have said anyone still using the old system is entirely responsible for all costs associated with it. 

    They're being !!!!!!, they really are. 

    I am chasing a quote for an individual system. I am left with no option...
  • MeteredOut
    MeteredOut Posts: 2,381 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 24 June 2024 at 2:55PM
    Where are they proposing putting the new system if you don't agree to it?

    Don't you have an option to get legal advice that show they are still liable to the costs of the old system even if they're not using it? Whether that would hold up if they disconnect their properties from it is the ultimate question.

    To save others looking back, here's the details from the easement

    The owner (of ASP) has agreed that the sewer or drain and cesspool laid beneath the surface oft he said land coloured red may be used by the grantees in manner hereinafter appearing

    1 .The grantees shall pay all legal charges in connection with this deed

    2. In consideration of the premises the owner (of ASP) as beneficial owner hereby grants unto the grantees full right and liberty for the grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers of the property (MC) aforesaid shown on the said plan and there on colour green and brown and their respective servants and licensees (in common with the owner and all others having the like right) to use the said sewer or drain and cesspool for the passage or conveyance of what are and soil from the said property colour green and brown on the said plan and for the purpose of repairing and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool as may be reasonable and proper in that behalf (making good nevertheless at their own expense all damage or disturbance which may be caused to any building or erection on or to the surface of the said land colour red on the said plan in carrying out such repairs or maintenance (but not for any other purpose) to enter upon the said land coloured red on the said plan to hold the same unto the grantees in fee simple

    3. The parties hereto hereby mutually covenant each with the other and their successors in title that they and their respective successors in title will from time to time contribute one0third each of the costs of inspecting repairing renewing relaying cleaning emptying and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool

    I'd also read clause 2 as them having no legal right in disconnecting you from the existing system. But, IANAL.

    Personally, I'd wait the 48 hours and see what they do next.
  • ognum
    ognum Posts: 4,879 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Please don't agree, you are being bullied.  Have your own system then if/when you come to sell it will be so much easier.  Get you own system  if needed gt a port a loo until its in.
  • theoretica
    theoretica Posts: 12,685 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Are they imagining that they could turf you, as the middle property, off their shared system but still have pipes crossing your land so that they could share a system?  Or are they thinking about three separate systems - which might be no bad thing?
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
  • AJC211
    AJC211 Posts: 83 Forumite
    Fourth Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    Where are they proposing putting the new system if you don't agree to it?

    Don't you have an option to get legal advice that show they are still liable to the costs of the old system even if they're not using it? Whether that would hold up if they disconnect their properties from it is the ultimate question.

    To save others looking back, here's the details from the easement

    The owner (of ASP) has agreed that the sewer or drain and cesspool laid beneath the surface oft he said land coloured red may be used by the grantees in manner hereinafter appearing

    1 .The grantees shall pay all legal charges in connection with this deed

    2. In consideration of the premises the owner (of ASP) as beneficial owner hereby grants unto the grantees full right and liberty for the grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers of the property (MC) aforesaid shown on the said plan and there on colour green and brown and their respective servants and licensees (in common with the owner and all others having the like right) to use the said sewer or drain and cesspool for the passage or conveyance of what are and soil from the said property colour green and brown on the said plan and for the purpose of repairing and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool as may be reasonable and proper in that behalf (making good nevertheless at their own expense all damage or disturbance which may be caused to any building or erection on or to the surface of the said land colour red on the said plan in carrying out such repairs or maintenance (but not for any other purpose) to enter upon the said land coloured red on the said plan to hold the same unto the grantees in fee simple

    3. The parties hereto hereby mutually covenant each with the other and their successors in title that they and their respective successors in title will from time to time contribute one0third each of the costs of inspecting repairing renewing relaying cleaning emptying and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool

    I'd also read clause 2 as them having no legal right in disconnecting you from the existing system. But, IANAL.

    Personally, I'd wait the 48 hours and see what they do next.
    Thankfully (!) I have experience in dealing with manipulative bullies. I will not be bullied. Unfortunately my response to bullying is very hard line 😂

    I will not be responding until I have received a quote for an individual system. The delays have been entirely their doing because they’ve insisted on spending time getting quotes for systems I’m not in agreement to 🤷‍♀️I’m the only one who’s tried to find a mutually agreeable option, which they’ve just declined.

    Assuming the individual system is feasible I will do this. I will not give them access to their land through mine (they can access it through their son’s property on the other side of me).

    They want to still share a system the two of them, and so my system will
    be made more complicated by having to work around the drains of one neighbour as they cross my property to reach the other neighbour. I think 🤔Although they are arguing that the entire current easement is lost once we move away from the existing system, so presumably this means my neighbours right to have drains crossing my land is also lost. Hmmm…

    My legal advice is that they cannot unilaterally remove me from the current system. So if I do get my own, I will continue to use the existing system until I can switch over.

    I don’t know (nor care) how they will get their own system in while I’m still using the old one. The only way it can work lara to ally is for them both to have their own individual system, I think. I genuinely don’t think they’ve considered this as they’ve just assumed that if they explain and persuade and bully me enough, I will just go “oh ok we’ll do it your way”. They’re talking about putting the order in on Thursday. Wonder what they’ll order??!! 🤷‍♀️

    The whole idea that I somehow have to abide by the random 48h deadline has riled me. But hey ho, pick the battles n all that 😂
  • AJC211
    AJC211 Posts: 83 Forumite
    Fourth Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    Are they imagining that they could turf you, as the middle property, off their shared system but still have pipes crossing your land so that they could share a system?  Or are they thinking about three separate systems - which might be no bad thing?
    What they want in order of preference:
    - all on my land
    - drainage on my land 

    not sure they’ve thought beyond that despite me repeatedly saying I don’t want anything on my land. I think their third option is:

    sharing the two properties either side of me, excluding me. So yes despite the existing easement being abandoned with the existing system, they seem to think they can still have a drain going through my garden. Need to check legalities of that…

    Im quite happy to leave them to their own devices….
  • MeteredOut
    MeteredOut Posts: 2,381 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 24 June 2024 at 3:48PM
    AJC211 said:
    Where are they proposing putting the new system if you don't agree to it?

    Don't you have an option to get legal advice that show they are still liable to the costs of the old system even if they're not using it? Whether that would hold up if they disconnect their properties from it is the ultimate question.

    To save others looking back, here's the details from the easement

    The owner (of ASP) has agreed that the sewer or drain and cesspool laid beneath the surface oft he said land coloured red may be used by the grantees in manner hereinafter appearing

    1 .The grantees shall pay all legal charges in connection with this deed

    2. In consideration of the premises the owner (of ASP) as beneficial owner hereby grants unto the grantees full right and liberty for the grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers of the property (MC) aforesaid shown on the said plan and there on colour green and brown and their respective servants and licensees (in common with the owner and all others having the like right) to use the said sewer or drain and cesspool for the passage or conveyance of what are and soil from the said property colour green and brown on the said plan and for the purpose of repairing and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool as may be reasonable and proper in that behalf (making good nevertheless at their own expense all damage or disturbance which may be caused to any building or erection on or to the surface of the said land colour red on the said plan in carrying out such repairs or maintenance (but not for any other purpose) to enter upon the said land coloured red on the said plan to hold the same unto the grantees in fee simple

    3. The parties hereto hereby mutually covenant each with the other and their successors in title that they and their respective successors in title will from time to time contribute one0third each of the costs of inspecting repairing renewing relaying cleaning emptying and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool

    I'd also read clause 2 as them having no legal right in disconnecting you from the existing system. But, IANAL.

    Personally, I'd wait the 48 hours and see what they do next.
    Thankfully (!) I have experience in dealing with manipulative bullies. I will not be bullied. Unfortunately my response to bullying is very hard line 😂

    I will not be responding until I have received a quote for an individual system. The delays have been entirely their doing because they’ve insisted on spending time getting quotes for systems I’m not in agreement to 🤷‍♀️I’m the only one who’s tried to find a mutually agreeable option, which they’ve just declined.

    Assuming the individual system is feasible I will do this. I will not give them access to their land through mine (they can access it through their son’s property on the other side of me).

    They want to still share a system the two of them, and so my system will
    be made more complicated by having to work around the drains of one neighbour as they cross my property to reach the other neighbour. I think 🤔Although they are arguing that the entire current easement is lost once we move away from the existing system, so presumably this means my neighbours right to have drains crossing my land is also lost. Hmmm…

    My legal advice is that they cannot unilaterally remove me from the current system. So if I do get my own, I will continue to use the existing system until I can switch over.

    I don’t know (nor care) how they will get their own system in while I’m still using the old one. The only way it can work lara to ally is for them both to have their own individual system, I think. I genuinely don’t think they’ve considered this as they’ve just assumed that if they explain and persuade and bully me enough, I will just go “oh ok we’ll do it your way”. They’re talking about putting the order in on Thursday. Wonder what they’ll order??!! 🤷‍♀️

    The whole idea that I somehow have to abide by the random 48h deadline has riled me. But hey ho, pick the battles n all that 😂
    Re. the bit I've highlighted above - I was thinking the same - they surely can't unilaterally say the easement disappears if they remove their properties from the existing system, and then try to use that same easement to continue using your land for parts of the replacement system.

    I'm way more invested in this that I should be, but I also despise bullies. I think you've said before that you'd actually go out of your way to pay more just to prove a point; I'd be of a similar mind after reading this thread.

    All the best and please do keep us updated.
  • propertyrental
    propertyrental Posts: 3,391 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 24 June 2024 at 5:02PM
    They are clearly, from what you say, complete tw*ts! (having said that there are always 2 sides and we've only heard yours. Not doubting you - just saying....).
    Given the 24 hour ultimatum, I'd be inclined to bite the financial bullet (unless you have legal cover? I forget) and apply for a court injunction prohibiting them from disconnecting you.
    Alternatively (or if they ignore an injunction) can you remove, cut or block their drain where it enters your land? Where would the build-up go? Seep out and cover your land due to gravity (not good), or back up their pipe to eventually flood their kitchen/downstairs loo......

  • AJC211
    AJC211 Posts: 83 Forumite
    Fourth Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    AJC211 said:
    Where are they proposing putting the new system if you don't agree to it?

    Don't you have an option to get legal advice that show they are still liable to the costs of the old system even if they're not using it? Whether that would hold up if they disconnect their properties from it is the ultimate question.

    To save others looking back, here's the details from the easement

    The owner (of ASP) has agreed that the sewer or drain and cesspool laid beneath the surface oft he said land coloured red may be used by the grantees in manner hereinafter appearing

    1 .The grantees shall pay all legal charges in connection with this deed

    2. In consideration of the premises the owner (of ASP) as beneficial owner hereby grants unto the grantees full right and liberty for the grantees and their successors in title the owners and occupiers of the property (MC) aforesaid shown on the said plan and there on colour green and brown and their respective servants and licensees (in common with the owner and all others having the like right) to use the said sewer or drain and cesspool for the passage or conveyance of what are and soil from the said property colour green and brown on the said plan and for the purpose of repairing and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool as may be reasonable and proper in that behalf (making good nevertheless at their own expense all damage or disturbance which may be caused to any building or erection on or to the surface of the said land colour red on the said plan in carrying out such repairs or maintenance (but not for any other purpose) to enter upon the said land coloured red on the said plan to hold the same unto the grantees in fee simple

    3. The parties hereto hereby mutually covenant each with the other and their successors in title that they and their respective successors in title will from time to time contribute one0third each of the costs of inspecting repairing renewing relaying cleaning emptying and maintaining the said sewer or drain and cesspool

    I'd also read clause 2 as them having no legal right in disconnecting you from the existing system. But, IANAL.

    Personally, I'd wait the 48 hours and see what they do next.
    Thankfully (!) I have experience in dealing with manipulative bullies. I will not be bullied. Unfortunately my response to bullying is very hard line 😂

    I will not be responding until I have received a quote for an individual system. The delays have been entirely their doing because they’ve insisted on spending time getting quotes for systems I’m not in agreement to 🤷‍♀️I’m the only one who’s tried to find a mutually agreeable option, which they’ve just declined.

    Assuming the individual system is feasible I will do this. I will not give them access to their land through mine (they can access it through their son’s property on the other side of me).

    They want to still share a system the two of them, and so my system will
    be made more complicated by having to work around the drains of one neighbour as they cross my property to reach the other neighbour. I think 🤔Although they are arguing that the entire current easement is lost once we move away from the existing system, so presumably this means my neighbours right to have drains crossing my land is also lost. Hmmm…

    My legal advice is that they cannot unilaterally remove me from the current system. So if I do get my own, I will continue to use the existing system until I can switch over.

    I don’t know (nor care) how they will get their own system in while I’m still using the old one. The only way it can work lara to ally is for them both to have their own individual system, I think. I genuinely don’t think they’ve considered this as they’ve just assumed that if they explain and persuade and bully me enough, I will just go “oh ok we’ll do it your way”. They’re talking about putting the order in on Thursday. Wonder what they’ll order??!! 🤷‍♀️

    The whole idea that I somehow have to abide by the random 48h deadline has riled me. But hey ho, pick the battles n all that 😂
    Re. the bit I've highlighted above - I was thinking the same - they surely can't unilaterally say the easement disappears if they remove their properties from the existing system, and then try to use that same easement to continue using your land for parts of the replacement system.

    I'm way more invested in this that I should be, but I also despise bullies. I think you've said before that you'd actually go out of your way to pay more just to prove a point; I'd be of a similar mind after reading this thread.

    All the best and please do keep us updated.
    I’m not vindictive, I’d only get an individual system if I thought it was right for me. If a shared system isn’t in MY best interests and doesn’t meet my needs then individual it will have to be. Protecting myself from neighbourly disputes and troublesome easements on my land is more important to me than financial outlay. I’ve told them this from the start and they have ignored it, instead only considering options on my land and trying to persuade me using financial reasoning. 

    I don’t understand why people are so bad at listening to each other?!🤷‍♀️🤪😂
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