I sell only my own assets at a loss, but more than 30 per year. Do I need to tell HMRC?

Spoonie_Turtle · 29 April at 10:46PM

TimeLord1 said:

No caps if you hit profit margins similar to top rated seller and I think 100 sales if they done something similar to stop people hitting Gains and Tax brackets then it would help people more. But currently once you sell 30 items they'll inform HMRC of this activity and if you make over £1700, so why not cap them instead of secretly passing over the information. I think they must've done a deal with HMRC so they themselves don't pay up. Wasn't us Gov they done it, we just allowed them.

Why the heck would they do that?? Treating sellers as if they're children incapable of meeting their financial responsibilities that are nothing to do with eBay specifically - the same rules apply whether using an online marketplace, selling via one's own website, selling face-to-face at craft fairs, in your own shop, at car boots, a stall in a physical market, whatever.

It actually IS nothing to do with eBay, people trading (or selling assets of such high value that CGT comes into play) are responsible for themselves.
The only tax-related thing eBay do deal with is collecting and passing on VAT for international sales under £135, or equivalent taxes elsewhere in the world (e.g. GST for Australia, sales taxes in the US).

soolin · 30 April at 7:40AM

TimeLord1 said:

By all means link it up to previous thread I would like to read it. I didn't open the thread but used mostly ebay statements and Gov link to the calculator to help people. As for secretly ebay won't message people to say we've sent your yearly sales report over to HMRC as required by law. And I believe it will be software that processes all the information it receives from online selling platforms. I'll check back when this is moved to the existing thread.

If users opted into eBay messages then they would have got at least 2 notifications so far, plus all the banner headlines. There will always be people who ignore messages or who just don’t bother reading any notifications on sites they use, nothing at all can be done to force someone to read messages if they choose not to.

I’ve had messages from Vinted as well, although some people still seem confused there but add remarks like ‘lol- i don’t ever read messages Vinted send so have no idea what’s going on, so could some explain it to me ‘ which I just find a little irritating.

I’ve had a message from Etsy as well, and even one from Amazon although I haven’t sold there for years.

When I have finished packing my post I’ll see what threads are still available to link to, many were closed though and some deleted entirely.

soolin · 30 April at 8:09AM

Pollycat · 30 April at 8:10AM

soolin said:

TimeLord1 said:

By all means link it up to previous thread I would like to read it. I didn't open the thread but used mostly ebay statements and Gov link to the calculator to help people. As for secretly ebay won't message people to say we've sent your yearly sales report over to HMRC as required by law. And I believe it will be software that processes all the information it receives from online selling platforms. I'll check back when this is moved to the existing thread.

If users opted into eBay messages then they would have got at least 2 notifications so far, plus all the banner headlines. There will always be people who ignore messages or who just don’t bother reading any notifications on sites they use, nothing at all can be done to force someone to read messages if they choose not to.

I’ve had messages from Vinted as well, although some people still seem confused there but add remarks like ‘lol- i don’t ever read messages Vinted send so have no idea what’s going on, so could some explain it to me ‘ which I just find a little irritating.

I’ve had a message from Etsy as well, and even one from Amazon although I haven’t sold there for years.

When I have finished packing my post I’ll see what threads are still available to link to, many were closed though and some deleted entirely.

Here are 2 threads that I've found:
eBayer worrying about new HMRC Reporting Requirements - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

New message from eBay re HMRC reporting - Page 3 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

I think that some of the confusion has come about because eBay & Vinted have put their own interpretation on what official sources say.

TimeLord1 · 30 April at 10:20AM

Spoonie_Turtle said:

TimeLord1 said:

No caps if you hit profit margins similar to top rated seller and I think 100 sales if they done something similar to stop people hitting Gains and Tax brackets then it would help people more. But currently once you sell 30 items they'll inform HMRC of this activity and if you make over £1700, so why not cap them instead of secretly passing over the information. I think they must've done a deal with HMRC so they themselves don't pay up. Wasn't us Gov they done it, we just allowed them.

Why the heck would they do that?? Treating sellers as if they're children incapable of meeting their financial responsibilities that are nothing to do with eBay specifically - the same rules apply whether using an online marketplace, selling via one's own website, selling face-to-face at craft fairs, in your own shop, at car boots, a stall in a physical market, whatever.

It actually IS nothing to do with eBay, people trading (or selling assets of such high value that CGT comes into play) are responsible for themselves.
The only tax-related thing eBay do deal with is collecting and passing on VAT for international sales under £135, or equivalent taxes elsewhere in the world (e.g. GST for Australia, sales taxes in the US).

I think there wouldn't be threads like this, if it was crystal clear from the start. I'm guessing the Op has years of selling behind him but he's unsure. And I mean all platforms, and for somebody starting new to selling not experienced sellers that have decades of knowledge behind them.

TimeLord1 · 30 April at 10:35AM

Pollycat said:

soolin said:

TimeLord1 said:

By all means link it up to previous thread I would like to read it. I didn't open the thread but used mostly ebay statements and Gov link to the calculator to help people. As for secretly ebay won't message people to say we've sent your yearly sales report over to HMRC as required by law. And I believe it will be software that processes all the information it receives from online selling platforms. I'll check back when this is moved to the existing thread.

If users opted into eBay messages then they would have got at least 2 notifications so far, plus all the banner headlines. There will always be people who ignore messages or who just don’t bother reading any notifications on sites they use, nothing at all can be done to force someone to read messages if they choose not to.

I’ve had messages from Vinted as well, although some people still seem confused there but add remarks like ‘lol- i don’t ever read messages Vinted send so have no idea what’s going on, so could some explain it to me ‘ which I just find a little irritating.

I’ve had a message from Etsy as well, and even one from Amazon although I haven’t sold there for years.

When I have finished packing my post I’ll see what threads are still available to link to, many were closed though and some deleted entirely.

Here are 2 threads that I've found:
eBayer worrying about new HMRC Reporting Requirements - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

New message from eBay re HMRC reporting - Page 3 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

I think that some of the confusion has come about because eBay & Vinted have put their own interpretation on what official sources say.

This is an issue also in the media making statements that were way off. I agree with Soolin, everyone will have an opinion it's what they themselves have learnt or know but if you took all the guidance off online selling sites they're very different in the approach to explaining the requirements, law's and procedures, so i doubt this will be the last one on here. I guess the original Thread got deleted by the OP.

TimeLord1 · 30 April at 11:54AM

Thanks for the links Soolin. 🤗

Madmonkeymayhem · 30 April at 2:25PM

Thanks for all the guidance provided to date. My uncertainty comes in part from the guidance provided by HMRC, both in information articles and on their community forums. This post for example (https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/sa/da2a25ba-30ab-ee11-a81c-002248004b84) contains numerous contradictory statements provided by 'HMRC Admin' users including things like "selling online is classed as trading when done on a regular basis."

This, together with the very limited example of what they consider private selling ('clearing out a loft or garage') implies that anything more than occasional selling is seen to be trading. What's not clear is what the "if you sell regularly and turnover is over £1000 then that implies trading" actually means? Does it mean HMRC will start harassing me to declare earnings because their narrow definition of a private seller is strictly limited to those under the 30 items/£1000 sale threshold and everyone else is guilty of being a trader until proven otherwise? The consequences of my sales data 'imply trading' is what I'm looking for guidance on. It's easy to say "They'll only come after people whose data shows they are clearly running a business", but until that guidance comes from HMRC themselves, it's pure speculation as to if or how they'll reach that conclusion. The rules may not have changed, but our awareness of them has, which gives us the opportunity to question them in greater detail.

Spoonie_Turtle · 30 April at 3:43PM

Madmonkeymayhem said:

Thanks for all the guidance provided to date. My uncertainty comes in part from the guidance provided by HMRC, both in information articles and on their community forums. This post for example (https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/sa/da2a25ba-30ab-ee11-a81c-002248004b84) contains numerous contradictory statements provided by 'HMRC Admin' users including things like "selling online is classed as trading when done on a regular basis."

This, together with the very limited example of what they consider private selling ('clearing out a loft or garage') implies that anything more than occasional selling is seen to be trading. What's not clear is what the "if you sell regularly and turnover is over £1000 then that implies trading" actually means? Does it mean HMRC will start harassing me to declare earnings because their narrow definition of a private seller is strictly limited to those under the 30 items/£1000 sale threshold and everyone else is guilty of being a trader until proven otherwise? The consequences of my sales data 'imply trading' is what I'm looking for guidance on. It's easy to say "They'll only come after people whose data shows they are clearly running a business", but until that guidance comes from HMRC themselves, it's pure speculation as to if or how they'll reach that conclusion. The rules may not have changed, but our awareness of them has, which gives us the opportunity to question them in greater detail.

I agree the reporting around this has been appalling, by and large, and it's disappointing to see HMRC reps themselves aren't being as clear-cut or helpful as they need to be.

So how about this from HMRC's online 'do I need to declare extra income?' checker:

"Personal possessions are physical items that belong to you, such as clothes, furniture or jewellery.

Items that you bought with the intention of selling to make a profit are not classed as personal possessions."

https://www.gov.uk/check-additional-income-tax >> Sold goods or services >> Did you only sell personal possessions

That's a clear distinction between personal possessions (private selling) and trading - without any reference to frequency of selling or any level of earnings.

The disappointing part of the checker is that if you press NO to only selling personal possessions - which people will do if they sold a mix of personal and trading items - it then goes on to ask if you 'made £1,000 or more' from selling the goods/services, without making a distinction between the two types. But it is clear elsewhere that the trading allowance only applies to trading, and that income from selling your personal possessions is not taxable and thus does not need to be declared to HMRC (unless CGT comes into play for items over £6,000, but that's a separate issue).

[If my brain weren't such mush I'd go finding the legislation and cite it as a source for the paragraph above but that's presently beyond me, alas.]

Pollycat · 30 April at 4:10PM

Spoonie_Turtle said:

"Personal possessions are physical items that belong to you, such as clothes, furniture or jewellery.
Items that you bought with the intention of selling to make a profit are not classed as personal possessions."

Now - how easy is that to understand...👍

I'm not a trader.
I only sell items that I've worn or bought with the intention of wearing or items of bric-a-brac that I've had on display and no longer like or gifts that I've been given that didn't suit or fit.

I sell only my own assets at a loss, but more than 30 per year. Do I need to tell HMRC?

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