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NCP "Parking Charge Notice" Fine - outside of car park??

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17891113

Comments

  • Lollip456
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    I've appealed the 2nd one but now then still left with the same surrounding questions around drafting the correct thing to POPLA

    Lollip456 said:
    Since I'm now at POPLA stage, I should copy the template from here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71285691#Comment_71285691  including the next post starting from "The operator has not shown that the individual..." 

    Correct?

    Where should I then add on specifics relating to my case?

    It was also mentioned before that I shouldn't send any images to POPLA?

    I'm terrified of making a mistake here so please continue to bare with my useless state of being 😢
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,387 Forumite
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    Lollip456 said:
    Thank you @Fruitcake, but I'm still not understanding why I need to the check the NTK when I thought we already did that when I sent a picture of it here?

    (Here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6488056/ncp-parking-charge-notice-fine-outside-of-car-park/p5)
    Because whilst you are only dealing with one or perhaps two PCNs, the regulars are dealing with about a hundred cries for help every day. We forget what has already been posted, and the longer a thread goes on, the more there is to forget. 
    We forget who posted what, and sometimes answer the wrong question on the wrong thread for the wrong poster because we forgot that we were dealing with a completely different poster five minutes earlier.

    Also, some of us are men and can't multitask, and most people only listen to me when I am wrong.

    Sometimes we need a refresher or reminder, and sometimes we don't have the time to trawl back through 10 or a hundred posts to find something when asking for it again is much easier.

    Oh, and sometimes we just make mistakes.

    Please don't take any of this as a slight on you. I asked, you reposted. Job done.


    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Lollip456
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    I always continue to be extremely grateful for anyone helping me and was more so worried and assumed I was once again misunderstanding something - so I'm grateful for us both to be on the same page 😊
  • Lollip456
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    UPDATE

    My first appeal directly to NCP was declined and I am now working on compiling together a PoPLA appeal with some wonderful help.
    I also received a 2nd PCN for a similar incident at the same location on a different date, however when I appealed directly to NCP using exactly the same details as my first, this appeal was accepted by NCP and they have cancelled that claim. 

    For others that are curious, I used the recommended 'blue text' template response as well as a response put together by @Fruitcake
  • Lollip456
    Lollip456 Posts: 72 Forumite
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    edited 6 January at 2:59PM
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    I have now completed my first draft for my entire PoPLA appeal which I hope to submit by the end of the week to ensure I am well within any deadlines. I would really love further feedback to ensure this is as good as it can be to stop such operator dead in their tracks from trying to get away with such an awful claim.

    https://mega.nz/file/APQhBRxQ#0o16FZ9fyUkn1zH2_4I-Yd-dAcH8sjWbY4OjYWLoqI8

    Any ideas for the title/ first page would be appreciated as I don't plan on keeping the current one of course 😅

    Edit: Fixed link
  • troublemaker22
    troublemaker22 Posts: 459 Forumite
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    edited 1 January at 8:30PM
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    I don't have the time or energy to scroll back and read dozens of posts so I apologise if the following comments are redundant, repetitive or off the point.

    The boys and girls at POPLA seem decent enough sorts but they are not legally qualified and they struggle with even the most basic legal concepts.  Some of them are particularly challenged by POFA and have handed down some spectacularly wrong decisions in relation to it.  So whenever I lodge a POPLA appeal that relies on a POFA argument, I make a point of starting as follows, almost like a mantra (obviously changing as necessary to take account of the facts of the particular case):

    1.      The appellant appeals as keeper. The appellant is not obliged to identify the driver and declines to do so.

    2.      The operator has candidly admitted in its purported “Notice to Keeper” (the “NTK”) that it does not know the identity of the driver:

    [quote the bit on the NTK where it says they don't know the name and address of the driver]

    3.      Section 21 of the BPA AOS Code of Practice explains what an operator must do in order to hold a keeper liable when it does not know the name and address of the driver:

    21.1 ……. Because of the difficulties of identifying who drivers are and where they live, the law in England and Wales now allows car park owners and operators to recover unpaid parking charges from registered vehicle keepers, or, where relevant, from vehicle hirers.

    21.2 Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 creates the new legal basis to claim unpaid parking charges from vehicle keepers and hirers. As long as the strict conditions of Schedule 4 are met, you may claim payment from the keeper or the hirer of the vehicle rather than from the driver. To do this you need to follow the procedures set out in the Schedule.

     4.  Please note that strict compliance is required. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient.

    5.  In the present case, the operator has failed to comply with the following POFA requirements

    [detail the POFA failures]

    6. If the operator wishes to pursue a contractual claim it must do so against the driver, not the keeper and it is not entitled to presume that the keeper is the driver.  This was made crystal clear in the foreword to his annual report for 2015, by POPLA’s then lead adjudicator and current London Traffic and Environment adjudicator, barrister Henry Michael Greenslade in the following terms:

    'There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 [of the Protection of Freedoms Act] to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time.'

    7  Mr Greenslade's view has been echoed by multiple decisions of learned judges and I have uploaded the following decisions in support of this appeal:

    Excel v Lamoureux (2016); 

    Vehicle Control Services Limited v Quayle (2017)

    Vehicle Control Services Limited v Edward (2023)

    8.      Accordingly, the NTK was not correctly issued and the operator may not claim payment from the keeper.

    You can download the case transcripts here - https://we.tl/t-zx4Tp9FKqe

  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,387 Forumite
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    edited 1 January at 9:05PM
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    Your PCN number is showing. You need to take down the link, redact personal data, then repost it.

    Remember to change the comment in your point about there being five car parks since one of the three car parks operated by NCP is not now correct because the multi-storey jobby is now operated by a different company.

    Point 5, Grace periods. Be sure to check and quote the actual BPA CoP version and commencement date, which I think should be V8, Jan 2020.

    A couple of times you have mention a period of ten seconds. Since you have now explained that the time between photos on the NTK was about four seconds, you should amend further references to either four seconds or perhaps, less than ten seconds.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Lollip456
    Lollip456 Posts: 72 Forumite
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    Fruitcake said:
    Your PCN number is showing. You need to take down the link, redact personal data, then repost it.

    Remember to change the comment in your point about there being five car parks since one of the three car parks operated by NCP is not now correct because the multi-storey jobby is now operated by a different company.

    Point 5, Grace periods. Be sure to check and quote the actual BPA CoP version and commencement date, which I think should be V8, Jan 2020.

    A couple of times you have mention a period of ten seconds. Since you have now explained that the time between photos on the NTK was about four seconds, you should amend further references to either four seconds or perhaps, less than ten seconds.
    Will do.

    I thought I already did make the changes regarding the 5 car parks, what were u referring to?

    I understand what you mean and have added those BPA details in.

    10 seconds was a one time typo, good spot thanks! I have now fixed that.


    Meanwhile I'm still not sure what the first page/ introduction should be or if I should have a summary at the end?
  • Lollip456
    Lollip456 Posts: 72 Forumite
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    Still really looking from some feedback from regulars as I need to send this PoPLA appeal of this week 🙈🙈

    Something I'm not sure about is whether it matters if I upload the document as word or pdf, whether an introduction or summary matter and what those should be if any?
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,387 Forumite
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    Lollip456 said:
    I have now completed my first draft for my entire PoPLA appeal which I hope to submit by the end of the week to ensure I am well within any deadlines. I would really love further feedback to ensure this is as good as it can be to stop such operator dead in their tracks from trying to get away with such an awful claim.

    https://mega.nz/file/APQhBRxQ#0o16FZ9fyUkn1zH2_4I-Yd-dAcH8sjWbY4OjYWLoqI8

    Any ideas for the title/ first page would be appreciated as I don't plan on keeping the current one of course 😅

    Edit: Fixed link
    I'm getting an error message that says the file is no longer available.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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