My energy provider is pushing me to have a smart meter

Netexporter

That's the bit I was hoping someone smarter than me could explain - can that be done? Can you use those smart meters to limit the consumption of everyone in the street, while also cutting off the supply to the one person in the street with a dumb meter?

No, of course you can't. However, if everybody had smart meters you could leave the supply to vulnerable people, with medical equipment, on supply.

badmemory

I suspect it would have to be first all dumb meters off, whether this will include those smart meters that aren't working as they ought I'll leave to someone more technical, next they would take all smart meters that aren't paying the"fee" & finally in cases of dire necessity those paying the fee.  There will of course be no control by ofgem of the fee although I would hope it would include without charge those whose life depend on receiving power to stay alive.

Netexporter

badmemory said:

I suspect it would have to be first all dumb meters off, whether this will include those smart meters that aren't working as they ought I'll leave to someone more technical, next they would take all smart meters that aren't paying the"fee" & finally in cases of dire necessity those paying the fee.  There will of course be no control by ofgem of the fee although I would hope it would include without charge those whose life depend on receiving power to stay alive.

All you are doing is demonstrating that you don't know how the grid works.

ArbitraryRandom

MiserlyMartin said:

I'm suspicious of the number of posts here that seem to be dead set on everyone being forced to have a smart meter, in a very forceful way. 

In my case at least it's not about forcing anyone to accept a smart meters - it's simply not understanding the logic behind not having one. 

For example, the suggestion that 'prime time' billing will be implemented for those with smart meters... without any thought for the prices that will mean those with non-smart meters will be paying for all of their energy. Or not wanting the data being collected for privacy concerns but being happy to own/use a smart phone... 

Anyone is entitled to hold those views/concerns, but they seem to be logically inconsistent/not plausible given recent events. 

Personally, having a smart meter does not infringe my privacy any more than a number of other activities I freely engage in; it allows me to save (reasonably significant) amounts of money on my bills each year - and will save me more when I get around to having solar and heat pumps installed; and I'm confident that any future pricing/energy issues will be tempered by government support (allowing a majority of people to be seriously inconvenienced or pushed into hardship will cost votes after all).

In fact, I'd go so far as to say if it's only a small number of people remaining with traditional meters, that the government are more likely to treat them as secondary when it comes to any relief efforts, in a similar way as we saw park home and off grid properties treated last winter. 

ArbitraryRandom

Gerry1 said:

matt_drummer said:

Gerry1 said:

@Netexporter Not a case of the suppliers choosing to cut you off, there will be times when the supply simply can't meet the demand even with 3% and 6% voltage reductions.

Have you not noticed the little letter tucked away on your bill showing you which disconnection rota you're on, or is that just another conspiracy theory?

How will a voltage reduction improve supply?

We consume kW (volts x amps).

If the voltage goes down the amps go up.

My 1 kW device draws 1 kW whether it is at 220 volts or 250 volts.

I'm afraid you've got it wrong again, just as you did with there being a Deemed Contract if you move into a property but never use any gas.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80320908/#Comment_80320908

Hmm.

Did you miss the quote from the Ofgem letter which confirmed that was their opinion only (not law) and that a number of suppliers did enforce a deemed contract when there had not been use (that Ofgem intended - future tense - to change the regs, but there's no evidence they ever did)?

And the link you provided in that post has an example (towards the end) of someone being found to have a deemed contract even though they did not consume any gas - because it depends on the specifics of the situation, not a blanket 'don't consume, don't have a contract'.  

i.e. AFAWK, as it stands it depends on the supplier and how they interpret the regs... which I believe was what Mat was originally claiming.  

matt_drummer

ArbitraryRandom said:

Gerry1 said:

matt_drummer said:

Gerry1 said:

@Netexporter Not a case of the suppliers choosing to cut you off, there will be times when the supply simply can't meet the demand even with 3% and 6% voltage reductions.

Have you not noticed the little letter tucked away on your bill showing you which disconnection rota you're on, or is that just another conspiracy theory?

How will a voltage reduction improve supply?

We consume kW (volts x amps).

If the voltage goes down the amps go up.

My 1 kW device draws 1 kW whether it is at 220 volts or 250 volts.

I'm afraid you've got it wrong again, just as you did with there being a Deemed Contract if you move into a property but never use any gas.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80320908/#Comment_80320908

Hmm.

Did you miss the quote from the Ofgem letter which confirmed that was their opinion only (not law) and that a number of suppliers did enforce a deemed contract when there had not been use (that Ofgem intended - future tense - to change the regs, but there's no evidence they ever did)?

And the link you provided in that post has an example (towards the end) of someone being found to have a deemed contract even though they did not consume any gas - because it depends on the specifics of the situation, not a blanket 'don't consume, don't have a contract'.  

i.e. AFAWK, as it stands it depends on the supplier and how they interpret the regs... which I believe was what Mat was originally claiming.  

Thanks,

I never said I was correct about deemed contacts. I said that I had some legal training, particularly around contract law and That was how I had read the statement and how I thought it would be interpreted.

I was wrong (or didn't explain enough) about the volts and amps though as @Gerry1 pointed out. It was the end of a long day and maybe one beer too many. I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about it. What I was trying to say was that if I need to do something that needs 1 kWh of energy I will still consume 1 kWh of energy

With some devices a lower voltage will mean less power consumed but I am sure that my heat pump pulls more amps at a lower voltage, it is designed to produce a certain amount of energy, it's not a light bulb or an electric panel heater.

MultiFuelBurner

MiserlyMartin said:

I'm suspicious of the number of posts here that seem to be dead set on everyone being forced to have a smart meter, in a very forceful way. I don't see what it has to do with them should people want to hang on to their old dumb meters. They do still fit dumb meters, I had my smart meter taken out by my supplier thank goodness. They still make them, you can buy them readily from electrical suppliers, so if a electricity supplier tells you they can't get them anymore, don't accept that rubbish.

You have been here sometime as a forum member, part of the furniture from your badges.

Why would you be suspicious at the "FOR" smart meter stance in the energy board when it's been obvious for the last few years the majority of main contributors here wax lyrical on smart meters, time of use tariffs and putting forward ways for energy users to save money with their smart meters.

This is money saving expert after all.

It surprises me that you are suspicious.

QrizB

MultiFuelBurner said:

... it's been obvious for the last few years the majority of main contributors here wax lyrical on smart meters, time of us tariffs and putting forward ways for energy users to save money with their smart meters.
This is money saving expert after all.

And it's one of those virtuous circles.

As more people get smart meters, more people are attracted to smart tariffs. Suppliers recognise this increased demand and look at how they can attract customers by offering better smart tariffs.

It's not that long since the only smart tariffs were Octopus Agile and Go, plus the odd 4-rate tariff like GEUK Tide. (I've omitted Tracker as, at the time, it didn't require a smart meter.)

There's been an veritable explosion of smart tariffs in the past 1-2 years, mostly from Octopus but other suppliers are also getting on the bandwagon.

EssexHebridean

Emily_Joy said:

Netexporter said:

Emily_Joy said:

oldernonethewiser said: What are folk worried aboout?

I personally worry about the fact that the smart meter collects information about how much and when the electricity/gas is used in my house. My partner and I, we are away from home often and for a long time (e.g. I was working abroad all September). The gas & electricity usage obviously indicate whether the house is occupied/lived in or not. I don't want this information to be collected and/or stored anywhere. 

Do you seriously think your friendly local burglar is going to be able to access the information?

No. But I do think that if I ever need to submit insurance claim for some damage caused to the house, the insurance provider could/will request the smart meter data and use it to establish whether the house was occupied in the way set in their usually very vague T&C.

I don’t believe I have ever encountered a home insurance policy with “vague” terms around the periods of time a property might be empty for - on the contrary, my experience over the past 25 years or so has always been that this is something that is pretty clearly set out. 

Probably worth ensuring that in fact you have correctly stated your pattern of occupancy to your insurers, rather than worrying about the fact that they might request smart meter data to prove that in fact you were away more than their policy said was acceptable! 

[Deleted User]

deano2099 said:

Dolor said:

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

Complete and utter rubbish. Suppliers cannot just increase prices unless the contract that was signed allows them to do so. For those on a variable tariff, suppliers have to notify consumers of any price increase with enough time to allow them to switch to another tariff or supplier. The upper limit of all SVTs is constrained by the Ofgem Cap. 

Yes, there are some people on this forum who have signed up to a contract which has a £1 per kWh Cap limit. Agile for example has a very clear formula based on wholesale prices so there is no hidden agenda here.

We do love our conspiracy theories on this forum.

Ahh. That disappointing. Unnecessarily rude. And you've always been one of the better posters on here. Ah well.

The notion that the system will manipulate prices to favour the wealthy is ‘complete and utter nonsense’. It was not an attack against the poster just his/her suggestion that smart meters will be used in the way suggested. Yes, we will see more and more smart time-of-use tariffs to ‘encourage’ consumers to move some of their energy use to periods when available supply exceeds demand. However, and I will say it again, the limits of manoeuvre will be constrained by the contracts that consumers sign and Government interventions such as the Ofgem Cap. 

For those diehards who want to use energy in any amount and at anytime, there will be much more expensive standard tariffs as is the case in many other countries today.

Rather than concentrate on the downsides of getting a smart meter let me offer two additional positives. Work is ongoing to allow smart meter data to be used to monitor the activity of the elderly and vulnerable. Tools have been developed to extract smart meter data from meters to populate price comparisons: that is, the cheapest tariff will be selected on the basis of not just how much energy is used but when it is used. There is nothing Machiavellian about smart metering. Those that think otherwise should try to understand why countries across the World are building smart grids.